Projection


My ex had this habit of accusing me of doing bad things that she was doing.  I was, in no way shape or form, doing what I was being accused of doing.  I was taken aback.  It was as clear as day, the whole preposterous nature of it all.

Since then, I have seen the same phenomenon, though not as off the charts as it was with my ex. Perhaps women are a bit more prone to it than men, but it seams to be something that is not totally gender specific.

I wondered, why accuse me of doing what she was doing?  Why not accuse me of doing something that might be a bit closer to something that I am actually doing.  Make the accusation a bit more plausible.   If were going to do such a thing, that is what I would do.  Logic apparently is not something in play here.

Probably it starts with what is on their mind.  They realize that their position, and what they are doing, is not right.  They can’t get it out of their mind.  It keeps bubbling up.  The bubbles become overwhelming and they just can’t help themselves; lashing out with ludicrous accusations.  That is my armchair psychologist take.

So what is the real driving force?  It would seem to be an untenable position; they realize that their position is not defensible if given logical scrutiny, so they must aggressively defend it.   What would be that defense?  With whatever ideas come bubbling up.  Furthermore, they can foist their evil onto others.

Exit question — Does this idea of projection also apply to politics?  Perhaps those with the untenable positions project much…

 

Posted in FarmBoy, Lies
117 comments on “Projection
  1. Horsemanbombadil says:

    Causality.

    If you do nothing that you would be ashamed of or that you regret or what is not in your best interests then you have piece.

    You are a thread on a tapistry. You move out of position your own thread becomes strained. The threads around you push on you as you encroach on their space. As soon as you move back into place all is balanced.

    An aquaintance was bitching about her life and relationship.
    I simply said “what do you want?” She said “I don’t know”.
    I said ” bullshit, You know exactly what you want.”. Stopped her cold. I followed with “and you know what it would do good and bad.”
    She opened her mouth to counter. I did the Spock eyebrow raise. She closed it. “So now we know you know what you want, how to get it, and what is required to out of you.”
    So now all you have to decide is “Are you going to do anything about it?”
    If so do it but accept the outcome.
    If not accept what is and the outcome of that.
    Its your choice. But stop the bullshitting. I don’t care for it and you certainly know you are bullshitting yourself.

    As expected she did nothing but at least now doesn’t go on about it.

    In 99% of the cases You know what you want and what to do about it.
    The bullshit is either fear or laziness or martyrdom.
    It is never (rarely) anything other than those three.

    So as Deti says. Get the fuck over it.

    I have been fired, almost divorced, shot at, and literally dead.
    Most modern “problems” including my own are easily solveable and of little consequence.

    P.s. ALL relationship issues can be solved with “There is the door, make a choice, now. Or I will.”

    It may hurt, it may cost, you may lose people.
    But if thats the end game it will happen anyway.
    Take control of how.

    Rant over.

    Have. A pleasant weekend.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Horsemanbombadil says:

    But I cant because…..

    If someone has power over you of any kind

    They WILL use it. Its just a question of when.
    So take away the power by making a choice.

    Jordan Peterson “It may be a choice between Famine and Tyranny but you always have a choice.”

    Ton would agree “Even if its dying like a man.”

    Mal “If I ever shoot you, you’ll be awake, you’ll be armed, and you’ll be facing me.”

    Again Mal “It was a good day….yeah but it was enough.'”

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Horsemanbombadil says:

    Big boys do the Mach Loop!!

    I love this weekend! Toronto Airshow so all the jets are staging out of Trenton all day.

    Talking at the barn….Whoosh….Snowbird solo1 goes over at 1,000. Whoosh…Solo 2. Then rumble rumble…. the remaining 7 in two echelon formations breaking into trail.

    Blue Angels, Italians, Raf all doing combat approaches over my house.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Horsemanbombadil says:

    Last comment.

    When you are alone, still, lying in the dark in the wee hours of the morning

    You KNOW exactly what you WANT.

    No bullshit, no rationalizing, no I should

    You KNOW. WHAT, exactly. You, Y.O.U. WANT.

    The ONLY question.

    Will you DO anything about it when the light comes
    And the rest of the World wakes
    to Watch what you will do?

    Only you know the answer

    And only you matter.

    Like

  5. BuenaVista says:

    My experience of projection, in my personal life, involves being accused of infidelity.

    Now I have never two-timed a woman, even a woman in a dating relationship. It’s just not my deal. Doesn’t mean I was above it; it does mean I never did.

    In the three most significant relationships I’ve had, two — my adulterous wife, and my married paramour — accused me of infidelity. The married paramour case was recently and I did say, “You do realize this is weapons-grade projection, since you’re sleeping with me while you are married.” My wife just couldn’t believe that I wouldn’t give her an “It’s all his fault” card for the divorce she sought. She was bonking at least two of our mutual friends in a reasonably small social circle. That divorce didn’t settle for almost two years, until I said, “Fine, I’m suing you now for divorce for cause (the infidelities)”. That didn’t comport with her self-image and social image, nor the image she wished to have with our children. It settled in 36 hours. She later sued me and my attorney for fraud, which didn’t work either but cost another $250K (and cost her lawyer her job).

    (The third woman is sociopathic and so smart she probably realized that accusing me of something I was incapable of refuting (since it was a negative), would drive me crazy and make me beg her to stop. So she wasn’t projecting. She was burning ants with a magnifying glass, I being the ant. She thought it would bring us closer together if I would only admit that I started fucking around one month after we married.)

    Anyhow, I see projection to be the product of guilt and self-knowledge, which becomes so burdensome that a person often wants to relieve the pressure by assigning the negative behavior to another person; to equalize, normalize and/or share the pain and guilt.

    Certainly, in a politicized workplace, political backbiting and accusations (for the same reason) often reveal more about the accuser than the target.

    Liked by 5 people

  6. Ame says:

    My ex had this habit of accusing me of doing bad things that she was doing.

    mine, too. all.the.time. i became very proactive to make sure i could not be formally accused of what he tried to accuse me of as he was continuously looking for ways to take me back to court. taking me to court was his passionate hobby.

    something that is not totally gender specific

    nope, it’s not.

    is my armchair psychologist take.

    it’s good to have such an analyst in the house 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Ame says:

    Anyhow, I see projection to be the product of guilt and self-knowledge, which becomes so burdensome that a person often wants to relieve the pressure by assigning the negative behavior to another person; to equalize, normalize and/or share the pain and guilt.

    wow. that’s it. BV nailed it.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. Ame says:

    talking to my Dad … he’s his wife’s 5th husband, iirc, and her step-son, “from one of her marriages,” is visiting.

    Dad likes the guy … or at least he said so when guy was listening. guy is retired colonel … married to a phd … they live in one state, she’s in another teaching some college classes … he’s in a third visiting his previous step mom (what do you call that? idk. previous step parent, anyway). they have a couple of young adult children.

    so … the little storm is coming to florida … as my dad said, it’s free advert for all hardware stores and grocery stores and gas stations. he’s done lots of storm research. he knows where it’s gonna land and where it’s *not* gonna land. anyway … previous step son got to fix my Dad’s generator and go find a sand bag place where he got to fill the sand bags and then bring them back to the house – they got them in case the pool overflows, which it will, but if there’s too much rain and/or too much too fast, it could flood the house. so … retired colonel, who is on vacation without his phd wife, visiting his previous step mom and her fifth husband, got to be put to work to prep for the hurricane! in all fairness to my Dad, he is still recovering from a quad bypass 🙂 .

    still … that’s where i get to smile and say, ‘not my monkey, not my circus.’

    Liked by 1 person

  9. RichardP says:

    …got to be put to work to prep for the hurricane!

    Probably nothing to do with projection. But a lot to do with project …

    Hope your dad and family there get just enough for things to be exciting, and nothing more.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Ame says:

    thank you, Richard.

    so … this is kind of the rest of that convo w/my dad … b/c when you live in florida, you KNOW there will be storms, so be at least somewhat prepared. i told him it’s like girls expecting men to buy their feminine hygiene products. men should NEVER buy feminine hygiene products for women. EVER. b/c it’s not like they don’t know they’re gonna need them every.single.month. if she can’t plan ahead enough to prepare for something that happens every.single.month for forever, then she deserves to have to find a washcloth or towel and figure it out till she can buy her own stuff.

    you know … like how people KNOW storms and lots of rain and wind and stuff happens when you live on the coast – which covers most of the state of florida. so … be prepared. they do sell plywood and generators and chain saws and non-refrigerated food items, including bottled water, year round.

    made my dad laugh 🙂

    (there are only 2 exceptions that i can think of:
    1. Single Dad’s with teenage daughters.
    2. After a woman gives birth if the bleeding continues longer than expected (some things one cannot plan for), especially if it is a first baby.)

    Like

  11. RichardP says:

    In the current thread at Dalrock’s, Scott says Personality is a function of temperament interacting with the environment over the lifespan, in particular the first 18-25 years or so.

    Those who study the issue say that personality tends to be persistent. But it also has many layers. Some layers become visible right away. Other layers are not invoked except in special circumstances and so the choice pattern that that layer expresses does not become visible except over time. This definition is necessary because it modifies the next paragraph:

    I read somewhere that You never really get to know a person until you’ve had a chance to see the choices they make. Per the previous paragraph, most of those choices are fairly visible and frequent, and so we develop a general idea of who and what the person is fairly quickly. But some choices are made in not so visible ways, or at such a slow pace that this layer of the personality does not become visible except over a longer time period.

    As an aside, I believe it is for this reason that wedding vows have the phrase “for better or for worse” in them. There is bound to be parts of the personality that only reveal themselves over time, and that pattern is not visible by the time we say “I Do”.

    Which is to say, for all of us in one way or another, there are parts of the person we marry that do not become obvious to us for quite a while. It was quite disconcerting for me, early on in my marriage, to have my wife accusing me of doing things or thinking things that were just not in my nature to do. It was only after I had been married long enough, and I had learned about projection (see Wikipedia) that it registered with me what was going on. Because over time I was beginning to see displayed in my wife’s choices those things she was accusing me of thinking and choosing (I’m talking fairly benign things here). That was a huge Aha moment for me.

    I wonder how many marriages that have tanked maybe would not have if the guys had been made aware of what was happening (the issue of projection), which would allow them to understand and regain their self-confidence, and put a stop to what their wife was doing.

    Triggered by FB’s “projection” comments, I’m going to say the following – for whatever it’s worth to the young guys that may be reading here: When living on the east coast, my wife flew to L.A. to visit her sister for a week. While she was gone, I was invited to dinner with some new friends she had recently made. After, as we were saying goodbyes and that we would have to do it again, one of the party said you are not at all the way she described you. That was said as a compliment, and I thought it an odd statement, but thought nothing more of it. Years later, during what I thought was a rather pointless argument, wife said to me If you don’t do [whatever; don’t remember], I’m going to tell them what you are really like. Which I thought was an odd thing to say, since I had had quite regular interaction for years with the folks she was going to tell what I was really like. “I’m sure they already have a good idea of what I’m really like” thought I, and went on about my business.

    Some days later, out of the blue, the quote from many years earlier popped into my head you are not at all the way she described you. And I made a connection. That was the companion statement to I’m going to tell them what you are really like.

    As a guy, I just shake my head at the foolishness of it all. But, even though I don’t understand it, I take it seriously. Because I have always understood that women are their own species, with their own way of viewing things. They are not just men who can make babies. So – makes no sense to me, but on a level I will never understand, it seems to make sense to women, or at least to my wife.

    What I have just described clearly is not projection of the sort that Farm Boy is discussing here. But I think it is in the same ballpark that produces projection. I am not schooled enough in psychology to discuss this stuff in detail. But over time Ame and Bloom and others have revealed how women think, and are afraid, and need the security of their man and so they test it by trying to drive him away (or something like that). All of which has further helped solidify my understanding that women are not just men who can make babies.

    To the guys: there is much we will never understand about our ladies. The point is to just keep on keepin on. But learning that this stuff is real, that it happens, and it happens to all of us, is a really big help to developing the attituted of keeping on keepin on.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Ame says:

    I’m going to tell them what you are really like.

    did you ever ask her what she thought that was?

    that’s interesting to me … how we perceive those we know very well vs. how others perceive them.

    also interesting that who we are is layered and revealed over time … and influenced over time.

    i think when the projection is really bad stuff … like BV’s women projecting unfaithfulness on him when he was not … it’s just a shock. and painful, really. my ex expected me to be deceitful and assumed i was lying to him. i examined myself so much to make sure i wasn’t that i over-examined myself. but, as i learned many years into our marriage (many), he had been lying to me and deceiving me for many, many years 😦 .

    Liked by 2 people

  13. RichardP says:

    @Ame said: if she can’t plan ahead enough to prepare for something that happens every.single.month for forever …

    Under the heading of women have their own way of thinking, maybe she is asking someone to buy these things for her as a way of showing herself that she is not alone in this task that she has to deal with every month.

    Like

  14. RichardP says:

    @Ame asked: did you ever ask her what she thought that was?

    No. And I never told her what her friends had told me after dinner either.

    She is a middle child, with all that entails. And by the time of my second quote, I understood that she struggled with dyslexia (doesn’t always get out exactly what she means to say). And I had become quite familiar with Jane Loevingers 9 Stages of Ego Development – very well summed up in the following quote from here:

    People’s stage of development influences what they notice and can become aware of, and therefore, what they can describe, articulate,cultivate, influence, and change.

    The pdf file I linked to has some misspelled words, but it gives a good overview of the subject. If interested in more, search on “Jane Loevinger”.

    One of the more important points that Loevinger made was that, under sufficient stress, folks tend to regress to an earlier level (sometimes much earlier level) of ego development. As an example, consider the description of the “self-protective” level of ego development. If a person is sufficiently stressed to regress to that self-protective level, it really is not going to be a useful endeavor to engage them in conversation about what they meant by what they said then. And, when the stress passes and the person rises back to whatever level of ego development they have progressed to, they likely won’t defend what they said while they were in the lower, self-protective, ego mode.

    Someone once said that the secret to a good and useful marriage is to have a good forgettery. Whatever the inspiration for that insight, I am sure that what I have just described about moving back and forth through levels of ego development, and what Farm Boy has introduced here about projection, had something to do with it – even if they just recognized those concepts in action without knowing what their “professional” names were.

    Liked by 3 people

  15. Ame says:

    Richard, umm, no. It’s a manipulative, control thing. She’s saying, “I’m going to make him prove he loves me by making him buy these for me.” Then she’s going to giggle to her girlfriends that she made him do that.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. RichardP says:

    OK. You would know better than I.

    Ame – your daughter is studying business. If she is going to focus on management, she will be taught that one of the definitions of “manager” is getting things done through other people

    In order to do that well, one must have an understanding that people are different and are motivated by different things. It is an error to think that one can get equal results out of everybody by treating them all the same. This requires some understanding of the formation of the personality and the different types of same. So – if she pursues managment training, she will probably have sections on how people are different, and what motivates each type.

    Your daughter is probably too early in her studies to be getting into this in-depth. But, when the time comes, that link I provided in my previous post might be a good place for her to start as it gives a pretty decent overview of the differences in peoples’ perspectives and motivations.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. RichardP says:

    The discussion of the 9 Stages of Ego Development begins on Page 22 of the link I gave 2 posts up.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Cheque d'Out says:

    I’d hesitate to call it swamp draining, but it’s a forward step

    Cummings is our sort-of Bannon, I reckon. Someone who knows how to get things done and how to treat his enemies

    (Javid is the Chancellor. Hammond is the ex-chancellor and arch-remoaniac Quisling)

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Farm Boy says:

    A sticky situation I would think

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Cheque d'Out says:

    Mongmentum is the hard-left cabal within modern laba

    Liked by 2 people

  21. Cheque d'Out says:

    I’ve had more than three. Bloody amateurs

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Cheque d'Out says:

    Language is a touch fruity (no, that doesn’t mean what you think that it does)

    But hopefully you’ll not understand the terms anyway.

    Jo Swinson is the relatively new leader of the highly illiberal, totally undemocratic liberal democrats. She’s the best that they had, apparently. Lord help them

    Like

  23. Farm Boy says:

    She didn’t want to miss out, in other words. She wanted to get her own emotional dopamine hit wrapped up in the turbo-missile package that is worldwide online attention on the victim hood hit parade. #MeToo would be far more accurate if it were called, #LookatMe!

    https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2019/08/29/metoo-the-lefts-ultimate-plan-for-relationships/

    Liked by 2 people

  24. In tribute to Ton I present this week’s episode of “College Is For Idiots”.

    Liked by 3 people

  25. From Horseman’s Globe link:

    It’s been a challenge my entire adult life, as an artist with chronic physical- and mental-health issues, to earn a living. The precariousness of my health makes it hard to hold down a steady job. My artistic craft – mostly poetry – is not valued, at least financially, in our culture. It’s difficult, at times, to feel like a productive member of society. And so, my relationship to academia is somewhat ambivalent – it has given me a certain amount of stability and it’s come at a cost.

    In my neck of the woods men would call this guy a pussy. If’n you want to church it up some he’d be a weak sister. But those are really just for fun. He’s actually a parasite who is too lazy to suck the blood out of the host himself; no, he wants it ladled into his mouth while someone rubs his tummy for him.

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Liz says:

    I told Mike Richard’s anecdote about his wife.
    He said when men get married they need to understand they’re marrying at least two different women. Could be a lot more but at least two.
    (of course I am perfect and he likes all versions of me! That’s right…)

    Liked by 2 people

  27. Cheque d'Out says:

    The UK Bannon, the current remoaniac’s favourite bête noire, from before his promotion to key advisor to PM BloJo

    Like

  28. Cheque d'Out says:

    The more that I see, the more that I like this guy

    Like

  29. BuenaVista says:

    On projection: There’s a truism that rings true for me: “If everyone you encounter is an asshole, well, you’re the asshole.”

    Liked by 2 people

  30. BuenaVista says:

    On projection, #2, and obviously I find this a provocative topic. (You want to explore troubling accusations, just grow up with a schizoid as the parental caregiver. Then make sure you marry the same problem.)

    A man I respect and admire very much is a conservative Lutheran pastor. His congregation is a collection of somnolent men and assertive, stage-hogging women, moving to the slow jam of Christian rock. The pastor is an extremely thoughtful, intelligent man, a PK himself. He is a hip pastor: jeans, boots, slim, haircut. 95% of his sermons are transformative, in my sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide world. His wife is just a lovely person. They have four homeschooled brilliant and charming children. They are so poor you’re embarrassed to take their food when you have dinner at their home.This is in rural, extremely conservative America.

    So Pastor, when I was still attending his church, could not stop talking about Men and Porn. It was an odd subject to preach, given that it was a church with single moms and sexually retired men and women. He came back to it 2-3 times in his sermons.

    My next observation, after I stopped attending, was whenever we had lunch or coffee, he would be dressed like 1960’s British rock star, riding on his 1960’s motorcycle. IOW, very foppish, very non-rural pastor.

    Quiz for the Faithful: Is our thoughtful pastor projecting a) I’ve got a porn habit, despite the lovely wife; b) I’m gay; c) everyone in my flock needs an alternative male exemplar, especially that dude BV?

    Liked by 4 people

  31. BuenaVista says:

    I don’t think my anecdote is articulate. The idea that this congregation has a porn problem is like saying a college football team needs assertiveness training. It was just, really, weird.

    Liked by 4 people

  32. Ame says:

    You really can’t trust anybody this days even the elderly

    What do you get out of church? Fellowship? Hope? Maybe a nice buzz of the weed cookie? lol

    Last year six congregation members at the St. John’s Apostle Catholic Church in Bloomington, indulged in these specials cookies. Apparently, the cases ranges from ages 12-70 where many said the cookies tasted unusually salty.
    A 74-year-old parishioner, identified only as Mr. Jones, is now accused of lacing the cookies with THC.

    Mr. Jones initially admitted to making the cookies but denied adding an illegal substance to them. Police later obtained a warrant to search his home and found an orange pill bottle containing capsules which later tested positive for marijuana.

    Read More: 74-Year-Old Man Got His Whole Church High On Weed Cookies | https://wblk.com/74-year-old-man-got-his-whole-church-high-on-weed-cookies/?trackback=fbshare_mobile&fbclid=IwAR3XugjiVUgqbvFToOo4y-OZ9pRU6MjJ3MejBit89QDvdduUlTr2OnlY38M&utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Ame says:

    Liz
    I told Mike Richard’s anecdote about his wife.
    He said when men get married they need to understand they’re marrying at least two different women. Could be a lot more but at least two.
    (of course I am perfect and he likes all versions of me! That’s right…)

    LOL!

    i may … or may not … resemble that 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Ame says:

    BV – i think, perhaps, the church preaching about porn is a common thing these days. before we stopped attending church the preacher preached about porn several times. it was inferred to me through the grapevine that he, himself, did have an issue. but as we left, and my life was full enough (like Bloom says, “My life is complicated enough.”), i haven’t given it any more thought.

    however … you imply that he was speaking to men having a porn issue. from what i’ve heard, females addicted to porn is also an issue. i wonder if the women ‘heard’ that in his sermons?

    my first husband was addicted to porn. one nice thing about him leaving was that i no longer had to be immersed in that anymore.

    Like

  35. Horsemanbombadil says:

    Why failure is baked in at this point. Front page story.

    1. 9 years of school to get Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Non Fiction.
    Non fiction = factual = creative?

    2. Want 20k+ UBI, angry Ontario killed the program before results were in?

    3. Rationalizes it by being able to do more volunteer work?

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-i-dont-want-to-do-my-phd-i-want-a-universal-basic-income/

    Jan 20, 2021 = co!llapse day.

    Trump gets in without the collusion excuse making Dems desparate, Antifa insane
    Or
    Dems get in triggering massive flight of capital from the business system for fear of Dem policies, runs on banks before govt triggers Bail-In ceasing assets.

    (Bail Ins are now legal by the CIDC which oversees canadian banks)

    https://www.cdic.ca/about-us/resolution/bail-in/

    “In 2016, Parliament introduced an amendment to the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation (CDIC) Act to add the “bail-in power” to the Corporation’s resolution tools. This tool is only for use in respect of Canada’s six largest banks, known as Domestic Systemically Important Banks (D-SIBs). A domestic systemically important bank (D-SIB) is a bank that could broadly impact the domestic economy should it fail.

    The bail-in power is a tool that CDIC can use to recapitalize a domestic systemically important bank (D-SIB) that is failing or is about to fail by converting certain debt1 into common shares. In Canada, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions (OSFI) has designated Canada’s six largest banks as systemically important2.

    In contrast to taxpayer-funded bail-outs, which were used in other jurisdictions to recapitalize banks during the 2008 global financial crisis, a “bail-in” ensures that losses are imposed on certain creditors and shareholders by having their debt converted into common shares.”

    Like

  36. Farm Boy says:

    In February of this year, SDSU rolled out a campuswide diversity initiative in order to combat faculty microaggressions, reduce bias, and increase diversity among newly hired staff.

    “As a professor at SDSU since 1970 and outspoken opponent of unethical actions by past and present SDSU administrators, I can affirm that ex-dean Lance Nail is correct. As a result of the hiring of De la Torre the SDSU central administration has never before been so uniformly far left or illiberal as it is now,” Hurlbert told The College Fix.

    “What Nail may not have understood is that De la Torre is only doing what she was hired to do: use the tricks she learned during her years at UC Davis to circumvent the California Constitution’s proscription on the use of race and sex preferences in student admissions and hiring of faculty and staff.”

    https://www.thecollegefix.com/trouble-brews-at-san-diego-state-under-its-first-female-latina-president/

    Like

  37. Sharkly says:

    At one point in my business I noticed that the liar was accusing me of falsehoods, the thief was accusing me of planning to make off with the money, and the greedy man was claiming that my greed(not his) was the problem. I believe they were perhaps putting themselves into my shoes and then imagining what they would do, and naturally they thought I would think and do much the same as they might.

    Liked by 5 people

  38. Ame says:

    interesting convo with my Dad today . . .

    he brought up, “Happy Wife; Happy Life.” and … you know … i just couldn’t leave it there … i mean, i tried, but i just couldn’t (b/c, you know, i’m a woman!)

    so i told him that it’s nice if the wife is happy, but you’ve got to be careful there (gotta ease a blue-piller gently) … that some women won’t be happy no matter what (my mother) and if the man is chasing her happiness, they’ll both be miserable. he laughed, of course, b/c he knows it’s true.

    then he said, “But the Bible says husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church! What about unconditional love!”

    ohhh … tie my tongue! lol!

    i reminded him that Jesus didn’t allow the church to do anything she wanted … Jesus had boundaries. God even wiped out generations of people … “Remember the 40 years in the desert? Can you imagine making your wife eat the same food every day for forty years?! Can you imagine making her wear the same clothes every day for forty years?! And her not crying, ‘Abuse! Abuse!’ Because the second part of that verse says that a husband is to love her like Jesus to make her holy … well, you can’t make her holy without getting rid of the unholy parts, and who likes that?!”

    he laughed again … then had to get off the phone for some such or another. i think it was too much … too against everything he’s believed in and been taught in the church all these years.

    (yes, i do know that God made it so their clothes would not wear out over that 40 years – a miracle)

    tomorrow we’ll talk about Dorian again and how he predicted how the storm would go from the beginning … and how the weather forecasters have enabled the home improvement and grocery stores to make budget 🙂 . and i’ll not bring it up unless he does 🙂

    Like

  39. Ame says:

    Sharkly
    At one point in my business I noticed that the liar was accusing me of falsehoods, the thief was accusing me of planning to make off with the money, and the greedy man was claiming that my greed(not his) was the problem. I believe they were perhaps putting themselves into my shoes and then imagining what they would do, and naturally they thought I would think and do much the same as they might.

    we can pretty much figure out who people are if we listen for cues like this.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. Ame says:

    Richard – i copied all that stuff and am going to send it to my daughter.

    Like

  41. Farm Boy says:

    [Very amusing that one was]

    Liked by 4 people

  42. Farm Boy says:

    Gratuitous images

    Like

  43. Horsemanbombadil says:

    DAAAaaaaam!

    Like

  44. Stephanie says:

    “i told him it’s like girls expecting men to buy their feminine hygiene products. men should NEVER buy feminine hygiene products for women. EVER. b/c it’s not like they don’t know they’re gonna need them every.single.month. if she can’t plan ahead enough to prepare for something that happens every.single.month for forever, then she deserves to have to find a washcloth or towel and figure it out till she can buy her own stuff.”

    ^Thank you for these hilarious comments, Ame!!! You keep making this sick woman’s night LOL!!! 😀

    Liked by 1 person

  45. Stephanie says:

    “Some days later, out of the blue, the quote from many years earlier popped into my head you are not at all the way she described you. And I made a connection. That was the companion statement to I’m going to tell them what you are really like.”

    Richard, that just sounds so awful. I have a passionate dislike for women who don’t protect/defend their husband in public (and in private to other people). Maybe your wife just wasn’t raised to be taught that doing that was a major betrayal… people’s upbringings do have an effect on what they think it normal.

    I think it was Ame (or Liz?) once who said something about how they could tell you about their husband in one way to make him appear wonderful and a hero, and yet they could also choose to tell a different (also true but somewhat skewed) side to make him appear to be a villain.

    As a wife, I believe it’s our job to not betray our husband by telling people some weird, skewed version of his flaws, which is usually only done when complaining. Even if the flaws have truth in them, whenever I’ve heard women do this, it’s almost never in an appropriate balance with what I know to be true of their husband’s good character. A woman outside their mariage should not have to stand up for the other woman’s own husband, but that’s what I’ve had to do more than a few times… it just really bothers me.

    And it’s just insane that a wife, who already is privy to his most intimate flaws, minor embarrassments, or setbacks, would not protect him and defend him in that way. I know we’re all human, but it’s not a good look.

    Liked by 3 people

  46. b g says:

    Stephanie

    You know that I loved my wife’s having always holding my back. Both of us had learned the hard way that if a wife disrespected her husband that their marriage was over.

    Liked by 2 people

  47. Farm Boy says:

    Well first, there is a plethora of Blue Pill advice all over the Sinternet, condoning women to play the field – advice which is redundant, because women do this naturally, without any prompting

    https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/psychological-projection-and-the-mirror-effect/

    Like

  48. Ame says:

    Stephanie – i’m so sorry you’re so sick, but i’m glad i could make you laugh! 🙂

    yes, we can focus on the good and make our husbands out to be awesome, or we can focus on the bad and make them out to be terrible. we need to choose the former.

    there will likely be times a woman needs to talk about personal things. in those situations she needs to wisely choose one person whom she can trust and be very careful what she shares, even then.

    – – –

    BG – if a wife disrespected her husband that their marriage was over.

    the thing about that is that if a husband is chasing after her respect for him, she will likely elusively give it when she thinks he deserves it. there is also teaching out there that says all respect must be earned. however, the bible has taken this out of perceptions, opinions, emotions, and feelings and has commanded wives to respect their husbands: “let the wife see that she respects her husband.” Ephesians 5:33b

    this is critically important b/c everyone’s standard of what one deems to be respect-worthy is different. also, there are likely to be times over many years when a husband might not be perceived as being very respectable for whatever reason … and we all know female hormones and emotions are unstable.

    also, there are definitely women in difficult marriages … there are men who are difficult to be married to … and there are some personalities that likely should not have married to begin with.

    for these examples, respecting one’s husband becomes a conscious choice. it’s a command. see to it that you respect your husband. it’s not an if-then … meaning only respect him IF _______.

    i love how the bible does things like this – it gives one, solid standard.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Farm Boy says:

    yes, we can focus on the good and make our husbands out to be awesome, or we can focus on the bad and make them out to be terrible. we need to choose the former.

    yes, we can focus on the good and make our husbands out to be awesome, or we can focus on the bad and make them out to be terrible. we need to choose the “provide good boobs” option

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Farm Boy says:

    “They’ve got gay everything, every place, and it’s about time they did something for straight pride. We’re people, too,” said one marcher.

    “It’s become less and less PC to be straight, white, and male,” said another marcher. “That’s considered the bottom of the chain. That’s the one group you can still voice negative things about on YouTube and there’s no punishment.”

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/51268/boston-straight-pride-parade-kicks-planned-draws-paul-bois

    Like

  51. Liz says:

    Our friends who visited have three boys and a girl (all in college right now….yikes!)
    Their daughter is an archeology major. I didn’t say anything but I always thought there was another word for archeology majors: baristas (and/or waitress and/or they go to law school or something). She actually has a job waiting for her at an engineering/archeology firm.
    A real one. A good one. If that’s not a sign the economy is doing well, I don’t know what is.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. BuenaVista says:

    Another take on Projection, from the Minneapolis paper this morning. Context is a long essay (which I don’t agree with, but surprise, the Star-Tribune is a liberal at the expense of self-criticism; it remains a real newspaper though, unlike the Wash Post or NY Times). She discusses how F. Scott Fitzgerald epitomized the hypocrisy of the 1920s, and what the author considers the new lawless gilded age in which, she says, we live.

    This take posits hypocrisy as central to Fitzgerald’s art, and his criticism of others as projection of his own, known weaknesses.

    “Prudih and appalled b y others’ bad behavior, his ‘values’ came from his WASP friends, the sons and dughter of robber barons, whose hypocrisy he loved to expose. He was exposing his own inner hypocrite, he knew.

    “[As a screenwriter] He understood perfectly why he was out of place in this milieu. Hollywood’s job was to keep Main Street on the straight and narrow, small-minded and smug, even as its moguls and stars lived private lives of wanton debauchery.”

    Fitzgerald did know that, like Tom and Daisy Buchanon and Jay Gatsby, he lived to excess and had a tendency to break things, people, lives. So created, projected this quality in others, brilliantly. A good writer writes about what he knows best.

    Liked by 3 people

  53. BuenaVista says:

    Ame, I’m going to stay away from your porn questions, as I believe (on a dollar spent basis) the vast majority of porn consumers are females: Their fetish is expressed in romance novels instead of physical images, however, so this opinion will get a person red-flagged.

    The pastor clearly shares the mainstream view that women are innocent of male “porn addictions”, but if there was a porn problem in that church it was with the moms and the pastor himself. Also, I got tired of all his hugs.

    Liked by 2 people

  54. BuenaVista says:

    “Prudish and appalled by …”, above.

    Like

  55. Stephanie says:

    On Fitzgerald… Didn’t his wife tell him his penis was too small?

    Like

  56. BuenaVista says:

    Here’s a link to the story, though honestly, unless you are interested in a couple of anecdotes about Scott and also Sinclair Lewis (whom I’m reading now), there’s not much there, there.

    http://www.startribune.com/the-great-scott-fitzgerald-100-years-in-the-public-conscience/558860732/

    Like

  57. BuenaVista says:

    Steph: That is an anecdote told by Hemingway.

    In the Hemingway anecdote, Scott was drunkenly whining about his wife Zelda’s ridiculing his package. So the ever-solicitous Hem said, “Well let’s go in the lavatory and check it out.” They did so. Hem said, “You got no problem there. Maybe try a pillow and change the angle.” I think he opines that when Scott looked down at his junk he was foreshortening it, and that he should try a profile view sometime. The real point of the story, imo, is that Hem blamed the nutjob wife for ruining Scott.

    This was relayed in perhaps Hemingway’s most lyrical (i.e., most Fitzgerald-esque) book, his memoir “A Moveable Feast”. It was somewhat typical of Hem to simultaneously humilate the dead Fitz, while demonstrating Hem’s solicitude and always-helpful manliness.

    Zelda was a destructive psychotic who lived in a sanatorium (genteel asylum) until Fitzgerald completed the task of drinking himself to death. Several of the anecdotes in Hem’s memoir are false, and this one may be too (no one knows). But “A Moveable Feast” is beautiful and heartbreaking, and remembers longingly his first wife, whom he wishes he had never left. (This was a cruel gesture to his fourth wife, Mary Welsh, with whom he lived.) He is on the downward slope emotionally, physically, artistically, but he musters a masterpiece. He blew his brains out with a 12 gauge at 61, while his wife slept upstairs.

    Incidentally, Fitzgerald is so lionized that most people don’t know that the first edition of Gatsby sold fewer than 1000 copies. It was a spectacular bomb, and he was one of the most popular writers of the 1920’sAnd that in 1929 ALL of his books were out of print.

    Liked by 2 people

  58. Stephanie says:

    I thought it was Hemingway that told that, and then reassured him. And yes, I don’t know how some of the great authors were able to write how they did with wives who didn’t support them, but teared them down psychologically every chance they could.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. BuenaVista says:

    Liked by 1 person

  60. Farm Boy says:

    Apparently eight year olds should vote

    The #18to8 campaign is asking Canada to lower the voting age to make sure that climate change is on top of the ballot.

    Learn more here ➡️ https://t.co/q6uGHXPeOm pic.twitter.com/qqiEcpVDJ2

    — David Suzuki FDN (@DavidSuzukiFDN) August 26, 2019

    Like

  61. RichardP says:

    This was typed elsewhere and copied into here. Appologies for any wierd formatting. that results.

    @Liz – What you said has given me a new appreciation for Mike.

    @Ame – Richard – i copied all that stuff and am going to send it to my daughter. What follows is probably more comprehensible.

    @Stephanie – I understand your sentiment, and thank you for it. But I did say that the projection was fairly benign stuff. (And, of course, this part of her did not become visible until after we were married.) What I meant to highlight was how strange to me the notion is that she thought she could teach stuff to folks who already knew me well. What follows expands on that a bit, particularly Point 3.
    —–

    In re-reading what I wrote, it is evident to me that the point I wanted to make did not come through clearly enough. I had an Aha moment – triggered by FB’s projection comments and BV’s story about what his lady projected onto him.

    ** Projection – Part 1: She attributes characteristics to him that he does not possess (can be positive or negative,or neutral).

    ** Projection – Part 2: She tells other people / complains to other people about the characteristics she has attributed to him that he does not possess. If these other people do not know him, they come to know him through the false characteristics that she has attributed to him through projection. When / if they come to know him through personal interaction, they will meet a person different from what she has described to them. That Aha moment has placed into proper perspective for me, and connected together, the two stories that I told.In terms of my story.

    1. I’m going to tell them what you are really like implies that she has attributed characterstics to me that I do not possess. This is the domain of “Projection – Part 1”

    2. You are not at all the way she described you implies that she has not only attributed characteristics to me that I don’t possess, but has also told others about them.

    3. In an honest examination of the projection issue, it is important to understand the concept of ego development and the development of same through distinct stages. Particularly the quote that I gave upthread, which I will repeat here:

    People’s stage of development influences what they notice and can become aware of, and therefore, what they can describe, articulate,cultivate, influence, and change.

    One cannot describe what one does not know about, or understand, or what one does not have the words for. Therefore, some instances that would otherwise be labeled projection really aren’t. Rather, they are a manifestation of the “see-er’s inability to understand acurately, or describe acurately, what they are seeing. (We don’t respond to what is. We can only respond to what is perceived) Specifically, in reference to the distinctions in Loevinger’s stages of ego development, a person in a lower stage cannot grasp, and therefore describe properly, the issues that define a higher stage of ego development. If they could do this, they would themselves belong to that higher stage.

    I have long been familiar with the activity in Point (1), from personal experience and from reading in the literature. It was the unique combination of FB and BV’s comments that suddenly brought to mind the possibility / probability that Point (2) is not a separate, isolated thing. Rather it is part of / an extension of Part (1). That was the point I was trying to get across in my original comments.

    Liked by 3 people

  62. RichardP says:

    The projection issue is a really complex subject, to which we cannot do justice in this thread. But consider the following ideas expressed in the manosphere that, on the surface, seem independent of each other, but may not be. Rather, they may all be united under whatever it is that leads one to “project” onto others. Search Wikipedia on “Projection” for an in-depth analysis of the subject.

    Both sexes can engage in projection. But the stories in the manosphere suggest that women are particularly good at this. So I will focus on women doing the projecting here.

    1. President Jimmy Carter once said of his wife – so long as I’ve known her, she has never admitted to being wrong. A sentiment that I have seen repeated endlessly in the manosphere.

    Since no one is perfect, this strongly implies that everyone is wrong at some point. What is going on that allows women to admit that no one is perfect, but never admit that they are wrong? When they are wrong, projecting the fault onto others seems to be at least part of what is at work here.

    2. Some / many women prefer to present themselves to other women as a victim. In this way they can elicit the “O, poor baby” reponse. If their life is otherwise fine, and no one sees them as a victim, how can they get what they want – the “O, poor baby” response. “Projecting bad things onto their spouse” seems a suitable answer.

    3. Women seem to have trouble distinuishing between cause and effect.

    4. Eighty percent of the women are attracted to 20% (or less) of the men; specifically, the bad boys.

    I won’t get this one right, but I’m in the ballpark of what is said. The way to game women in your favor is to cater to their desire to see you as the bad boy – whether you actually are one or not. How could men be successful at this except that women are eager to project onto a suitable subject the attributes that generate tingles – regardless of whether those characteristics are actually there.

    That point goes a long way to explaining regret sex. Hot for teacher up front, because projection. Time and distance reveals that those characteristics don’t actually exist with teacher and so instant “eeewww”, which leads to reclassification as “regret sex” – which creates fodder for character assasination years later.

    5. Women make poor choices in life-mates. (Because of incorrect projection of the sort discussed in Point 4?) Therefore, their chance of attaching to a partner that will make for a successful marriage is enhanced if dad or brothers do the choosing.

    6. In spite of all available evidence, many women think that a better life awaits them if only they would blow up their marriage and go off in search of an alpha.

    7. You can no doubt think of other things that belong in this list.

    Liked by 3 people

  63. RichardP says:

    The link I provided upthread was there last night. Just now, I tried it and the domain has expired. For those interested, here is a different link to the pdf that I linked to upthread. It is a pre-publication version and stands at 97 pages. The published version was edited down to 36 pages.

    I’m linking to the longer version, on the chance that some of the material deleted from the published version might be instructive to some.

    Stages of Ego Development – pre-publication version
    Stage descriptions start at Page 22.

    Stages of Ego Development – published version:
    (copy and paste if you want this one; delete the underlines front and back)

    __http://newpossibilitiesassociates.com/uploads/9_levels_of_increasing_embrace_update_1_07.pdf__

    Liked by 2 people

  64. On another porn related note:

    https://theothermccain.com/2019/08/31/mothers-tell-your-children/

    On Monday, the first of these women, identified as Jane Doe 15, finished her testimony. During three days of examination, Doe 15 recounted for the court a nightmarish sequence of events, which started with a Craigslist ad in 2016 and ended in doxxing, harassment, job troubles, expulsion from her cheerleading squad, fleeing her college town, and fractured relationships with her family, classmates, and boyfriend.
    Girls Do Porn, a San Diego-based adult subscription service formed in 2006 by New Zealand man Michael Pratt, trafficked in XXX videos with amateur actresses, ages 18-22. . . .
    “If I had known that, not only was it going on the internet,” Doe 15 said in her testimony, “but that they were posting it on the internet, that my name would be attached to it, that it would be in the United States, and that I wouldn’t be paid $5,000, but $2,000 less, and insulted because I was pale and bruised; if I had known that it was more than 30 minutes of filming, if I had known any of that, just any one of those; if I had known that other girls had been harassed and kicked out of school for it, if I had known that I would be kicked off the cheer team; if I had known any of that, I wouldn’t have done it.”…

    “I have contemplated suicide. I have cut myself. I became depressed, could not leave the house, and considered dropping out of school. People started to message me with video screenshots or they would send screenshots to my friends making fun of me. My mom knows of the video, which shames and humiliates me. I had to drop out of college to avoid ongoing harassment from classmates. I have been harassed at work about the video to the point that I had to quit. I am now scared to apply for new jobs. I get random requests on social media from strangers asking me to have sex with them. I live in fear every single day that I will run across someone that knows about the video. I am trying to move to another state soon.”

    I put on my money on red. The food money, the rent money, the school tuition. Now, if I’d known that that spin was going to turn up black, I wouldn’t have done it. So, really I can’t be blamed you see, and I would like my money back now.

    McCain adds:

    “Oh, so she wanted to be a secret whore, not a public whore, and therefore she is a victim of . . . what? Her own stupidity, I’d say. ”

    “Oh, the unbearable shame of it all! You were whoring around and thought nobody would ever find out what a nasty whore you are? Oops.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. BuenaVista says:

    Steph:

    Zelda was Scott’s muse. He loved her with all his being. In Gatsby, there is the image of the blink-blink-blinking green shore light. “And so we beat on, boats against the current, born ceaselessly against the past.” (I’m here quoting from memory of “Gatsby”, memory for guys like me is usually wrong.) Fitzgerald lived and died in search of that one beacon promising safe harbor.

    At sea or in the plane, at night with no moon, the blinking light is safety and home. One exists in a black hole. Zelda was Scott’s black hole. She was unable to be his beacon, and he was unable to figure it out and say, “Okay, fine. You go to the rest home and I’m going to write another 10 major books, and protect our daughter.” He wasn’t strong enough. Thank you for your interest in Fitzgerald, he is a major artist.

    There are two rivers in American literature. There is the (Henry) Jamesian river of the perfect sentence. There is the Stephen Crane river of simple eloquence of difficult things. Fitzgerald the apotheosis of the former, Hem the latter. No one has improved on either, yet, with the possible exception of James Salter.

    Salter’s landmark book also sold fewer than 1000 copies. He was called a pornographer by the ladies at the NY Times. Salter flew 100 combat missions in Super Sabres in Korea. He is the finest stylist of the last 60 years in American literature. “And no one knows his name.”

    Liked by 3 people

  66. Ame says:

    yes, we can focus on the good and make our husbands out to be awesome, or we can focus on the bad and make them out to be terrible. we need to choose the “provide good boobs” option

    LOL! Farm Boy!

    it is amazing how powerful those are in marriage 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  67. BuenaVista says:

    In thinking about it for a moment, Salter synthesizes the literature of action and conflict and suppressed awareness, and the literature of a moment’s beauty and tragedy in same (Fitzgerald). But I know, none of you know his name. I’m barking up a tree.

    Liked by 3 people

  68. Ame says:

    BuenaVista
    Ame, I’m going to stay away from your porn questions, as I believe (on a dollar spent basis) the vast majority of porn consumers are females: Their fetish is expressed in romance novels instead of physical images, however, so this opinion will get a person red-flagged.

    The pastor clearly shares the mainstream view that women are innocent of male “porn addictions”, but if there was a porn problem in that church it was with the moms and the pastor himself. Also, I got tired of all his hugs.

    i respect and agree with staying away from porn questions.

    imo, preachers who preach topically are more likely to manipulate their sermons than those who preach through books of the bible. idk why it’s so hard just to preach/teach from the bible. the job of conviction belongs to the Holy Spirit, not man.

    i agree with the hugs thing.

    – – –

    on hugs … there’s a young man who works at my local grocery store who i enjoy talking to when i’m checking out. he’s finishing up his welding degree/certificate and making plans for his future. he’s a delightful young man and a hard worker and thinks through things. the other day he came over to the register i was at to help bag my groceries at the same time i had moved to the end to help bag my groceries. he looked up and saw me, smiled big, and reflexively gave me a gentle side hug. i was touched for many reasons, but one is that he is of a different race but obviously simply saw me as a person he respects and appreciates rather than seeing our racial differences, which is very nice in this day and time.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Ame says:

    BV – thanks to your recommendation, i just bought his book, “The Hunters: A Novel,” kindle edition.

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Farm Boy says:

    Robot pole dancers to debut at French nightclub

    Two robot dancers topped with a CCTV camera for a head will debut at the SC-Club in Nantes to celebrate its fifth anniversary.

    https://news.sky.com/story/robot-pole-dancers-to-debut-at-french-nightclub-11799391

    Like

  71. Liz says:

    BV, Mike and I both read Cassada. I read it a couple of times.
    Also, A Sport and a Pastime. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  72. Farm Boy says:

    Liz dog-sitting

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Farm Boy says:

    Caption this

    Liked by 2 people

  74. Farm Boy says:

    A millionaire model agency boss who is thought to have key information about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal ‘has disappeared like a ghost without a trace’.

    Jean-Luc Brunel, 72, has vanished as police seek to ask the Frenchman ‘urgent’ questions about the paedophile.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7417633/Millionaire-thought-key-information-Epstein-scandal-vanishes.html

    Like

  75. Farm Boy says:

    White supremacists on their way to Chicago for #LaborDayWeekend to carry out a series of covert shootings, that will mysteriously go unsolved, yet ultimately be blamed on “Black culture” when the reports come out Monday that “80 people in Chicago were shot this weekend” pic.twitter.com/VkBjM93moD

    — Tariq Nasheed 🇺🇸 (@tariqnasheed) August 30, 2019

    Like

  76. Stephanie says:

    Thank you for all that information, BV, I did read The Great Gatsby a few times, it was just always so tragic and I’m silly and prefer more upbeat things. I loved Hemingway’s work when I used to read it, somehow he could make even tragedy appear attractive lol.

    I saw that about Zelda being his muse when I did some quick research last night when my oldest was hanging out with me on the couch. I think it’s good to study people and marriage dynamics like that, so told my son some of what she was like, and how this was so bad for Fitzgerald. We do try to teach him about what kind of woman to pick, and I pray everyday for God to give him someone who truly appreciates him and treats him with respect and affection (and is calm and able to handle life’s storms relatively well).

    It’s very scary to be raising boys. Girls honestly have it a lot easier if their mom already knows how to teach them, “pink pill,” info.

    Liked by 2 people

  77. Stephanie says:

    My own parents are VERY much like the Tolstoy’s toxic marriage, even though I love them both so much. My mom does have many good qualities, she’s an especially good grandmother – our kids LIVE to see her and she’s over a couple of times a week. They love my dad, too, he’s the perfect grandpa ❤ But reading about their marriage, reading Sofia Tolstoy's diary, it's almost like going home LOL… I don't think some women can understand how bad she was to him, unless they had a mother like that and saw how it affected their dad firsthand.

    Maybe that's why I have more sympathy toward Leo, than his wife. I read that his daughters, especially the youngest one, was closer to him, too.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. BuenaVista says:

    Ame, “The Hunters” is his first book. He wrote it while on active duty, keeping the effort entirely secret from his military brethren (so as not to be distrusted and red-flagged!). It therefore is his weakest book and atypical. There was a movie made from it, “The Hunters”, but it is a ridiculous departure from anything in the novel.

    Liz’ choice of “A Sport and a Pastime” is a challenging one, but some would say it is the finest novel published post-1960 in America. It was this book that the NYTimes panned badly. Around this time, Salter wrote the screenplay for Robert Redford’s breakthrough movie, “Downhill Racer.” Redford’s character is a rancher’s son who breaks into the elite world of wealthy ski racers in Europe, has an affair with a fancy Euro girl.

    His next book, “Light Years” is indescribably beautiful and sad; but because it’s set in the lower Hudson Valley (where West Point is, which is where Salter was educated), I bought it for my daughter’s boyfriend, who is a West Point grad too.

    Redford asked Salter to write a screenplay about the great American climber Harlin, and he did. Then Redford declined the project, embittering Salter. Salter did take the screenplay and wrote a brief novel called “Solo Faces”. I think that was the first Salter novel I gave Son #1.

    His memoir, “Burning the Days”, has the tension and lyricism of a great novel.

    I dated a Hollywood Wife for a while and she gave me a signed, first edition of “A Sport and a Pastime”. I’ve always wondered if I properly thanked her. We were out for dinner in Stonington, CT (I worked on a fishing trawler out of Stonington when I was a young man) and I know that I burst into tears, briefly.

    Liked by 2 people

  79. Truth in advertising.

    Liked by 1 person

  80. Liz says:

    Caption this
    TLAR
    (that looks about right)

    Liked by 1 person

  81. Stephanie says:

    “Since no one is perfect, this strongly implies that everyone is wrong at some point. What is going on that allows women to admit that no one is perfect, but never admit that they are wrong? When they are wrong, projecting the fault onto others seems to be at least part of what is at work here.”

    I tend to be wrong a lot, Richard, and I seem to have a knack at misunderstanding you 😉 Plus with pregnancy hormones, I’m a nut right now. But on the being wrong thing… my husband loves it when I admit that I was wrong about something, because I usually start off the sentence with, “You were right, blah blah blah really *was* blah blah blah…” And he pretends not to hear me so I have to repeat it 3 times at least lol…

    Liked by 1 person

  82. Stephanie says:

    Meanwhile he has the wickedest grin… it’s not fair being married to someone whose always right I tell you!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  83. RichardP says:

    @Stephanie said: I seem to have a knack at misunderstanding you

    Nah. Since you have to tell Patrick he is right so often, you compensate by projecting on to me that I am wrong. Helps balance things out.

    Seriously, these threads really are not the place to discuss some of the things we (the group) discuss, because they are some weighty topics that require a great bit of background knowledge before one can understand some throw-away line that someone puts out there. But, still, we’re gonna discuss the stuff anyway, because that’s who we are. And so, because we often don’t have the time to give all of the background, we (me in particular) tend to confuse people in this limited medium of communication. I appreciate the fact that you and Ame and Liz let me know when that happens.

    Along those lines, Stephanie I owe you a response to an exchange we had 18 months ago or so. I told you I would respond privately so as to not clog up yours or anyone elses blogs.. And so I typed out my response. Then I read it and thought, what if she doesn’t know what I mean by this and that, and that over there? Better explain what I mean when I say that. When I hit eleven pages I just stopped – realizing that this is not the medium in which to discuss things that require a lot of background knowledge. But your challenge to me and my attempt to answer it has led me to a thought that I probably would not have ever had otherwise. At some point, I will get it to you (the short version) for some feedback from you. But you’ve had a baby and another one is on the way since we had that initial exchange. So I’m guessing that you have had, and will have for some time, better things to do than ponder a theological question.

    Switching subjects – I saw your response about the Tolstoy’s marriage and your parent’s marriage being somewhat similar. If you’ve said that before, I’ve not seen it – so that came as news to me. I’m sorry to hear that, for your sake. Two questions immediately popped into my head: 1) did you know that at least part of the argument between he and she Tolstoy was over his desire to give all their property away? Particularly at a time when the state did not provide resources to women and children like they do today, I can see how that would freak out a woman who maybe still had children to care for. Also, he had a child with a woman he had sex with before he married Sophia. Seems she was fearful most of their time together that Leo would leave her (Sophia) for the other woman. And 2) I wonder if your parents would agree with your assessment of their relationship re. Tolstoys (rhetorical question). I think the conventional wisdom is that most marriages are an amalgamation of behaviors that few outside the twosome would ever understand. I think that is especially true with children who see from the outside versus the parents, who see from the inside. I’m not saying your assessment is wrong, I’m just a curious fellow, wondering if your parents see things differently from you (again, rhetorical).

    I’m in a particularly reflective mood tonight, and your comments above caught me square in the heart. The things I really wanted to say were much gooeyer than what I’ve written here. But you are not my wife, and you are not carrying my baby – so I will only say that you really bring a breath of fresh air to this place with your curiousity and energy and perspective. And I really enjoy a pregnant woman, most especially when she is being ditzy – not on purpose but because she is pregnant. I have a wife, four sisters, female cousins and wives of male cousins, so I’ve been around my share of pregnant women. And I seriously am happy for you, to look at the life that you are building with Patrick, and the smile that you are putting on your children’s faces, in spite of this being a pretty shi**y world and all of the shenanigans that have gone on with your relatives.

    You and Patrick make a good team.

    Liked by 2 people

  84. Liz says:

    Think it’s a little strange for someone to never admit he/she is wrong.
    No one is right all the time. No one knows everything.
    Mike’s not right about everything (we disagree on), but he’s right most of the time.
    He likes to rub it in when that happens. LOL 😆

    Liked by 1 person

  85. Liz says:

    I’m reminded of this scene from Everybody Hates Chris. The credit card episode.
    Background: Chris Rock made a show about his formative years growing up. It was very entertaining.

    Liked by 1 person

  86. Liz says:

    I liked that show. The boys used to watch it.
    It was on when I was working and sometimes I borrowed the lines….”My man has three jobs! I don’t need this!” (you’d have to watch it for context) Pretty sure they could write a really funny show about their wonder years at our house too ( I’ve never yelled like that but there is some high comedy) 😆

    Liked by 1 person

  87. Liz says:

    I give this a score of 1000 on my bullshytometer scale.
    “Kristen Stewart was told if she stopped holding hands with girlfriend in public she’d get a marvel movie”

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/kristen-stewart-was-told-if-she-stopped-holding-hands-with-girlfriend-in-public-shed-get-a-marvel-movie-082930134.html

    Like

  88. Liz says:

    Well, perhaps I was too hasty. Just thinking further…
    Maybe she was told to stop holding hands and start really flagrant displays of PDA to get that Marvel movie.
    In which case I’d say it was legit.

    Like

  89. Ame says:

    But on the being wrong thing… my husband loves it when I admit that I was wrong about something, because I usually start off the sentence with, “You were right, blah blah blah really *was* blah blah blah…” And he pretends not to hear me so I have to repeat it 3 times at least lol…

    LOL! Stephanie, that’s funnee!!! 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  90. Farm Boy says:

    Does he then demand sex?

    Liked by 1 person

  91. Ame says:

    my Husband handles me really well when i’m wrong. not long ago he came in the room where i was, quietly sat next to me, and calmly told me i was wrong. other times he’ll look at me and say, “Who piss*d in your cheerios this morning?!” lol! there’s other ways, but i do appreciate him handling it straight on. my first husband would get intensely angry but never tell me what i did wrong – i’d have to try and figure it out, and regardless of what i did, i was always wrong anyway. i was damned if i do and damned if i don’t. if he got mad at x, i’d do y. then he’d get mad at y. and when he was mad at me, it was bad. it’s nice to be married to someone who can face it straight on and often with humor (unless it calls for a more direct approach).

    Liked by 3 people

  92. Stephanie says:

    “Does he then demand sex?”

    Usually LOL

    Liked by 2 people

  93. Stephanie says:

    “Stephanie I owe you a response to an exchange we had 18 months ago or so. ”

    That seems so long ago, and yet time has gone by so fast between the two pregnancies… you can send the short reply, I’m interested in what the topic was being that long ago.

    ” I wonder if your parents would agree with your assessment of their relationship re. Tolstoys (rhetorical question). ”

    I should have been more clear… my mom was NOT as bad as Sofia T. That woman had such depth of nastiness in her actions and attitude that my mom thankfully never had. My dad would most definitely agree with me though, I’m close to both of them, so I do know what they each think of their long, 4 decade marriage. My dad has confided in me things he’s never told my mom about what he really thinks. He’s confided in me deep regret in even marrying her because of her (assumed but never proven) mental illness that wreaked havoc on their marriage from the beginning. And she’s confided in me what she really thinks about his behavior being difficult.

    And he’s admitted he’s difficult to live with, much in the way that Leo sounded like, but a lot of that came from how my mom acted in certain situations repeatedly… I think people can help their spouse to become bitter and angry and mean overtime. Which then makes people like Sofia T. (or my mom) look like the victim of her husband’s meanness, when in reality, there’s a lot more that went on there behind the scenes (that’s in her diary, and that I saw reflected in my dad’s retelling of his account) that makes sense.

    At least in my parents’ case they still do things together and work together fairly well… they even still eat out on, “dates,” almost every evening… so it’s much better in many ways than the Tolstoy’s. He’s not going to be sending some note requesting she never come into his presence again lol… so in some way, they do like each other.

    Like

  94. Stephanie says:

    For example… I don’t know how I was able to see this as a child, but I *knew* she didn’t respect or submit to him… even as she was teaching me that that was the proper behavior for a wife! She actually admitted this recently… that she always had a hard time submitting to my dad. It’s one thing to have a hard time, but it’s a whole different ball game when you’re like, “Nope! I’m not doing it that way, and if you don’t like it, divorce me… I dare you!” That was more her attitude and method of solving things.

    She was a hoarder, but not as bad as you see on TV… but when he wanted her to get rid of some things because it was getting very hard and ridiculous, she literally told him he could go live int he basement. We didn’t have a basement. He just… lived with it and never divorced her, but it *did* affect him and the way he treated her in return.

    There were many examples growing up where she just bucked his leadership and decided to do things her own way – which ended up being a harder, more embarrassing way for her in the cases I’m thinking of. Even in spiritual leadership, she just would not follow.

    Liked by 1 person

  95. Stephanie says:

    I feel like I’m only showing one side… people are so complex! My mom, even with her faults, she had so much wisdom to impart when I was growing up.

    And, almost as if to make up for the family problems we’ve had with my husband’s side, she treats my husband like a King. His own family this year totally forgot to mention his birthday to him when we met them the day before, which felt horrible. They were angry our kids didn’t want to go with them to the Rodeo, so in their anger (I guess?) they totally forgot their own son’s birthday. No card … nothing. They do things like that all the time now that we have them back in our life.

    Last year for my husband’s birthday, we went up to see his aging Grandparents who are sweet people he’ll actually miss when they pass. His mom made him a cake, but wouldn’t let us take any home! She packed it away quickly and said it was, “For the family (aka the family who hates us, wasn’t there to celebrate his birthday, and ignores our kids at functions!!!!) LOL

    You could make a movie… a really funny movie about the antics he endures with this relatives.

    My mom has always been super generous to people… she’s a lot kinder than Sofia T. sounded with her petty attitude towards the poor. So for my husband’s birthdays… she gives him a few hundred bucks, buys him nice shirts that he actually likes, and the year his own mother wouldn’t give him a cake to take home, my mom actually bought him TWO cheesecakes (because he likes cheesecake more than actual cake).

    My mom bought him two because she found out the fancy one she bought to be shipped from a famous restaurant in New York wouldn’t arrive in time. So she bought another so he’d have it for his actual day. She really loves him and lets him know all the time.

    She’s like that with our kids, too. So lots of good points that don’t involve her marriage.

    Liked by 2 people

  96. BuenaVista says:

    You want “Projection”, try having Nebraska football fans in the room. As a Chilean once said about Argentines, “If you could buy them for what they are worth, and sell them for what they think they’re worth, you could retire tomorrow.” They’re still bragging on the teams from the 1990’s. Which is a little like Minnesota telling us that they won 7 national titles generations ago; Pitt 9. But of course no MN or Pitt fans are hanging their self-esteem on football teams long since departed. Just mouth-breathers from the trans-Missouri River west.

    I think, in general, fandom expresses a vicarious thrill, a projection of self onto superior athletes. I’m not immune.

    Iowa had more linemen in the NFL last year than anyone but Alabama; more than USC. There are 3 million people in Iowa and 2.9 million are white. So people are proud of that and boys identify (project) with that. This year’s team is playing five boys from towns no larger than 5,000. The left guard wasn’t offered a scholarship (by anybody). The right tackle is going to be a top 10 pick in the next NFL draft. He still walks on his hands, and he weighs 330 pounds. The two Paulsens are from a high school with 250 kids; they’ll be in NFL camps next summer. The center is 19 and he’ll be all Big Ten this year. All five wrestled and finished 1-2-3 in the state tournament; the Paulsens refused to wrestle each other in the finals. So yeah, I project with these guys: I left home when I was 17 and went to unusual places doing unusual things. So I’m loyal to the model. As a mature man it’s very rewarding to watch young men create their lives.

    (Unless we’re talking about Nebraska. They hire criminals from California and then brag about it.)

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDZP2oEWkAIS8ly?format=jpg

    Liked by 2 people

  97. RichardP says:

    Under the heading “things that people only reveal about themselves over time”:

    She was a hoarder, but not as bad as you see on TV… but when he wanted her to get rid of some things because it was getting very hard and ridiculous, she literally told him he could go live in the basement.

    Stephanie, if you haven’t done so yet, you might benefit from reading a book or two on hoarders. It is a real condition, and it generally is not fixable. As your dad found out, trying to force the issue of cleaning up can result in some very vigorous responses. Been there. Done that.

    Wife’s grandmother on her dad’s side was a hoarder. After they both had died and we were cleaning up the house for sale, we discovered a doorway from the garage into the house that we did not know was there.. It had been covered for years by things she was keeping that she had not used for years. Over time, it has become obvious that my wife has inherited that tendency. That tendency only became obvious after she was older than you are now. So it will be interesting to see if your mom’s tendencies start showing in you later. Or, maybe like my wife, they will skip a generation and show up in your children.

    Liked by 2 people

  98. Liz says:

    Mike’s Dad was a hoarder, and his sister. She’s also married to a hoarder…no kids, 4,000 square foot house with three floors and entire rooms are so full you can’t enter. Three car garage filled, one entire room is her closet and shoes fill the wall top to bottom. He’s military too…so they have to lug this stuff around. Over a certain weight, the move isn’t paid for and I’m sure they’re at least twice over.

    Liked by 2 people

  99. Liz says:

    When we were cleaning out Mike’s dad’s hangar (redundant sets of tools everywhere, in mint condition, the place was just filled with stuff…and he’d built an apartment into it so our boys said it would make the perfect safehouse)
    Mike turned to one of our boys (who has a bit of the hoarding tendency) and said, “See this, if you keep going the way you’re going, you’ll be like this someday”
    His response, “You mean surrounded by awesomeness!?!
    😆

    Liked by 3 people

  100. Stephanie says:

    “So it will be interesting to see if your mom’s tendencies start showing in you later. ”

    LOL… I’ll let y’all know if I suddenly start cramming our house from top to bottom.

    Seriously… THANK GOD my husband would never put up with that! Bless him! ❤

    Liked by 2 people

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