Commenter Cadders writes:
A good question; why *will* men come back to the reservation?
I don’t see it shaking out like that. Men won’t be coming ‘back’ at all.
I have seen many definitions of MGTOW – it frequently seems to excite a ‘passionate’ response amongst it’s critics. And this feature is, I think, and indication that people sense a power in the concept, even as they sometimes try to deny or fight it.
They are not wrong. I just think the nature of that power is misunderstood.
I mentioned earlier about the women I see in offices around the country. I didn’t mention the men, but among them I see the male response to a feminized world. Few are leading or looking for any kind of traditional lifestyle. Younger men working just enough to take care of themselves, few interested in career progression, occasional sex when the planets align, no kids, even increasing numbers of them not even able to drive (this last came as a surprise to me). Among older men there are obviously more who are family men, but even here the trajectory is similar to the younger cohort. The single older men are often divorced, not interested in any kind of committed relationship, they are coasting in their careers and some tell me they would rather spend time on their hobbies than have sex with the women that are on offer. These men are living their lives on ‘easy mode’.
The mainstream media would of course cast these men as ‘losers’. But they support themselves, are not imposing themselves on others, and don’t seem especially unhappy – in fact many seem to live full and peaceful lives. I don’t think this is purely anecdotal either – in ‘The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness’ – a report based on the longitudinal study of happiness which (iirc) has been running for over 60 years, it was documented that for the first time ever, men are now reporting as being happier with their lives than women.
So when I look around the office at these men, what do I really see? Well, to my eyes I see hoards of MGTOWs. It’s just that most have never heard of the term, and few would consider themselves as such. But functionally – and that’s what really matters – that’s what they are.
Feminists are fond of saying that women are all feminists now. The irony is that at the same time, they have made, or rather are making, all men MGTOWs – at least functionally.
Such men form an increasing proportion of the general male population. These are the men the women get to choose from. It really is no surprise many women can’t get commitment from them. The men are happy to have sex or FWB arrangements (of course) and many are interested in something longer term…..but…..so many times I have seen fledgling relationships fail as the men start to step up to shouldering ‘traditional’ responsibilities – seeking better jobs, more pay, a bigger flat etc….and then give up. They seem to get to a point where they think – meh – the relationship is not worth the effort, and switch back to easy mode. In all honesty I can’t say I blame them.
All of which is to support your contention. This is the dysfunctional state of today’s mating market.
But my point is there is no ‘reservation’ to get men to come back to. Just an increasing mess of broken people leading empty, atomized lives. Both men and women desire something better, but it can’t be found in the current system – feminism destroyed or corrupted all the social mores, traditions and institutions that worked to give both men and women meaningful and fulfilling lives and a family.
As you mention, men now only need women for sex and child rearing. And feminists would have us believe that women don’t need a man for *anything*.
Well kinda – women don’t need men for anything because the state provides to women most of what men traditionally provided. Or at least it used to. Without the state intervening women not needing men for *anything* quickly becomes women needing men for *everything*. And this is what is happening. It’s not obvious because women are suffering the ‘death of 1000 cuts.’ I described earlier the austerity cut backs that are predominantly affecting women – as ever the politicians are being clever – they are not (or rarely) actually stopping or cutting benefits, just making it much harder to qualify for them. They are introducing multi-year freezes on them and letting inflation erode the true value of them. Women are increasingly finding that Big Daddy Government no longer cares for them like it used to. They want something better. Hypergamy in action.
So are women stepping up to the new challenges they face to better their lot? Hardly – the UK National Health Service has just issued a directive that young women aged 16 to 24 be considered an ‘at-risk’ group for mental health issues. Rather than creating a generation of ‘strong independent women’, feminism has instead, it seems to me, created a cohort of frightened little girls.
And no wonder. Feminism has left women increasingly in a world of half-interested men and an impoverished state. Women as a group clearly aren’t stepping up, coming off the government teat and providing for themselves to anything like the same extent their male peers are. They traded the sex card in years ago. So what do women have left?
The one thing men are still desperate for.
Just as women are crying out for authentic dominant masculinity, so men are craving authentic submissive femininity. And this is what I am starting to see popping up here and there. Women being sweet, submissive body language, showing affection, being playful. Not playing games or being a bitch.
And they are creaming it. One that stands out for me can only be described as, well, quite ugly. But she captivates most men in her orbit as she has dialed up her femininity to 11. That’s how desperate men are for femininity. Believe me, other women notice as well. The message is starting to spread through the herd; ‘there is a better way’.
This, I believe, is the nexus of the change that is happening. Feminism has pushed the pendulum so far against men’s interests that it is now also working against women to the point that some of them are waking up. And it will swing back to just such an extreme extent in the opposite direction; women will have to become feminine again in order to command men’s commitment as they once did. And to be feminine is to reject EVERYTHING that feminism stands for. I am sure it will not go down without a fight.
But here’s the thing. Femininity is a very fragile thing – in a feminist environment most women are now too scared to appear feminine. It can only flourish when protected by a strong masculinity. The challenge for men is to develop sufficient masculinity to give women the strength to express their femininity. A few men will (are in fact). And this is enough. Because when all those guys on easy mode see the prize that can be won, this will be enough to make them step up and be a contender. Because at last women are offering something ‘worth the effort’.
The future will belong to such men and women. Back they won’t be going ‘back’ to anything. They will be creating the new culture, and as ever, where men lead, the women will follow.
Here are some comments that were promoted:
“Because when all those guys on easy mode see the prize that can be won, this will be enough to make them step up and be a contender. Because at last women are offering something ‘worth the effort’.”
The prize that can be won.
It will take more than just feminimity.
Remove the monetary risks
Remove the risk of child alienation
Remove the accusation risk of jail\career destruction.
Even the most feminine woman still has to prove trustworthy and risk free.
Yes a feminine girl rises above the others. The best of a bad lot.
But is it enough to then risk?
Most men think not.
Individually I totally agree with you. This is what works to hook the man.
But to reel him in, make him commit, the reinforcing risk structures need to be removed.
And what is the catalyst for the entire herd, as a group, to do that?
I honestly don’t know.
And the prize??
Remove the tattoos,
Plug up the peircings
Fix the weird hair.
Drop to maximum 140 lbs
Learn to cook, not reheat, really cook.
Assume the change in attitude holds. They still have to remove the physical damage they have done to themselves.
And all this has to be Worth vastly increased Effort from the guys.
I live on 20 hours a week work.
I surf\golf\hunt\game the other 20.
I have my place, my stuff, my things how I like it.
I have peace, quiet. When I want it.
Add 20+ hours of work to support a family
Give up my time for hobbies
Remove my control of my life
Allow drama or even talking during the game into my living room.
Gotta be one hell of a prize.
(As a old pre 1990s married man, I get it.
But for millenials who the above has been their lived life)
Assume a pretty demure girl. Assume no risk marriage. Assume sexually faithful and attentive.
Its still gotta compete with the existing mgtow lifestyle.
Much of the current thinking assumes the default is still towards Wanting LTR and work and achievement if you remove the disincentive.
No! The default is now MGTOW. Its freeing. Its enjoyable, its easy.
How do you SELL WOMEN???
(Just the idea that that has to be done indicates how fucked we are)
Im not being an ass. I see many of my twenty something son’s friends who have no interest in women except as buds, as part of the gang. And these are engineers!!
Most raised by single moims, never dated in hs, nedver even a short term relationship.
They have no experience with the prize of a fulfilling, compassionate relationship.
They honestly don’t know the product.
How does Don Draper sell it?
The Glorious Patriarch:
I think that the shock to the system to make Horseman’s changes happen would be close to a societal extinction event. Women will need to actively turn on feminists, not just ignore them. We need laws overturned, amendments reversed, masses of non-jobs revoked because we can’t afford this feel good shit.
Even then, if I were young, I’d still wait for the next generation of women who are brought up sane and sensible. Maybe if the parents were solid, maybe.
But that’s aged me thinking with my big head at a stage where I actively have no interest in kids (rather than being potentially persuadable by the right woman, maybe). Don’t want kids? No reason to cohabit IMHO anyway. Maybe a pooling of resources for retirement? But I’d rather do that with a man as at least you might be able to get a contract to stick.
The young men should be red pilled and allowed to make their own decisions.
Back In The Saddle:
Horseman and I are on the same page. And for me … its personal … here is the one thing that will make it very hard for me or any other divorced man ever put their lives in jeopardy again. And its this. Men marry and commit thinking its permanent. Women marry, commit, and think they can change their minds whenever they want. They want to branch swing, Or get bored. Or find someone better or usually … think they can find someone better, when they can’t but they are too stupid to know it or admit it. So they just nuke the marriage and the man has no choice in the matter. If he wants to continue to having sex with his own wife until is over or while they are still married … its considered rape. Until these things change … when a woman says “Yes” and commits to marriage there is no way for her to back out. As long as we are married and I’m fulfilling my side of the contract … then I get to fuck her whenever I want … whether she likes it or not and its not considered rape. Its considered MARRIAGE. She she didn’t want to sign up for that … then she shouldn’t have gotten married and until its over … we are still married.
Until that changes … I see very few men … taking that gamble ever again. Why should a man put his very life on the life … when the woman can destroy everything on a whim and he can do nothing about it. I’m not taking that kind of chance … been there once and seen lots of other men there too. And I don’t ever seeing women agreeing to those kinds of changes.
Two other comments. Cadders … it was a shock to me several years ago when I found out that most Millennial boys and many girls … do not own a car, don’t drive much or very frequently … many don’t even have drivers licences or don’t until very late. Was a shock to me … and found it hard to believe but that’s been going on for awhile now and I’m used to it. Used to be you got a license at 16 now its 18 or even 20. And a dude wanted a car to be independent as soon as possible … now … guess with no job, no girlfriend, and living through his phone … he don’t need a car. Weird.
Second, this return to Femininity Cadders talk about … sorry, dude, but I have not seen it at all. In my neck of the woods … women continue to get fatter, stupider, and more selfish. They treat men like garbage and wonder why they can’t find a man. Maybe its a regional thing or something but where I live in the US … it ain’t happening here.
I think that the shock to the system to make Horseman’s changes happen would be close to a societal extinction event
Agreed and it will have to be a prolonged struggle. After 9/11 old school masculinity was popular and celebrated. For maybe 3 weeks. Maybe. Then it was back to the same old same old. With this latest shit storm in Huston, I saw maybe a day’s worth of look at those men helping out/ go men. Might be they only did it for a day because by enlarge it seems like it’s rural Southern White men and that is enemy #1 to the media and tribe
Women will need to actively turn on feminists,
Women won’t do that. They will switch teams and act like they were always on Team Man/ Team Us.
Red Pill Girl:
I would agree w Cadders, women demanded independence and in doing so unintentionally introduced men to independence from women. No longer socially required. Most “independent” women I know are only so to a degree, when the task gets dirty, hard, or takes skills they don’t have, what do they do? Expect a man to automatically do it. Then when men politely say, “that’s ok, you go ahead” these independent gals lose it! So women want independence (until they don’t) but then find men took them at their word! oops. Feminism screwed women in a way they never expected bc all they considered was the upsides, not the inevitable downsides. The biggest one being men realizing “wow, I don’t have to live to serve women? I can do my own thing? Awesome!”
I also agree femininity is a secret weapon far too few women understand how to deploy, but even with that there are lots of guys who aren’t going to un-mtgow. Especially the kind of guys women truly want, guys w options. And many of those guys have found the women will likely still hang on hoping that will change. Eventually the relationship runs its course, uncommitted. He’s no worse off. Finds another fwb. Next! It would take a LOT to get a guy who has grown used to that to commit. It happens occasionally I suppose, but a gal may as well count on the lottery.
The Glorious Patriarch:
You leave men alone for long enough to be comfortable, show them on TV how women think life should be (soap opera style DRAMA) and see how many men want to build their life around a princess.
This is where you running your own business showed that you were different.
Show that you aren’t an AWALT ladies. Have a bedrock of competence, especially in traditionally female areas. Don’t associate with screaming harpies, because nothing sends a sensible man running for the hills faster than a witches convention of shrieking drama queens.
The big issue feminists don’t get is the Trust Issue??
You change course, you get attractive, you get skills, whatever.
How does a Mgtow, now free
Trust that its not all an Act?
Have you really changed or is it a tactical ploy.
A woman would have to be like Bloom, years of actual observable hard work for no reason but herself and her accomplishments before I would ever trust that she is on our side.
Some individuals but a significant part of the herd never.
Lets say they do change and mean it.
They still have to overcome the mgtow lifestyle.
Bloom: The biggest one being men realizing “wow, I don’t have to live to serve women? I can do my own thing? Awesome.
Think about it. Sex is what an hour every two days maybe? And half an hour after are you really that motivated by it to work for it again?
Where as fishing. You land a nice one. What do you do? Cast again.
That perfect click sound as the club strikes the golfball? Yes! Again!
I’m out, Dude pass me another clip!!
Sex and women are great. But up against “I can do my own thing?”
Honeys, you ain’t anywhere near That Good!!
If Cadders and Horseman are correct and it shakes out thus, then the change will happen slowly, one couple at a time, to the point where men say “terms for me being in your life are A, B, C, and D, and whatever else I decide I want/need. Take it or leave it.”
And I think a lot of women will take it, as things continue shaking out. I also think that women saying “But I bring the pussy, so I make the rules” will still have some effect, but it will be tamped down quite a bit, particularly with men who were baited and switched with that before. “I’m valuable because vagina” doesn’t cut it when you just bought a pussy that’s increasingly made unavailable to you.
I just talked to another woman I went to college with. She still doesn’t get it. 49 years old, never married/no kids, in great shape, works hard at staying in shape, runs a fitness/”life coaching” business. Same old shit: Men ain’t shit, crybaby manchildren, made me pick up the tab once. I want and deserve a man close to my age who is in shape, who can handle/manage being with me, and who is just happy to have me as a trophy wife and willing to let me just be and run my business.
Yet it’s also “where are all the good men, how come I can’t find any good men, there’s no men out there who meet my criteria…..”
Cadders is right that women are getting increasingly unhappy with their lives. Just like my very fit college friend.
It’s going to happen slowly.
“I agree with what you say as long as “terms for me being in your life are A, B, C, and D, and whatever else I decide I want/need. Take it or leave it.” becomes enforceable. Under current legal conditions it is not, just the reverse.”
Yes. I was talking about primarily men simply walking away, as I almost did with my marriage about 6 years ago. I had finally been pushed too far, and one of the things I said was words to the effect of “if this marriage survives, it will be on my terms or not at all. I will get what I want and need either from you in this marriage, or from someone else. I can’t make you do what I want, but I can make you choose.”
“So choose. Let me know what your choice is. I honestly don’t care which choice you make.”
My college friend will keep doing what she’s doing now – flitting from man to man to man in search of whatever she’s feeling today. Three months ago she was done with men. 2 months ago she’s dating some other guy. Last night she was done with men again. 2 months from now she’ll be in some other 55 year old divorced small business CEO’s bed, and a month after that she’ll swear off men again.
That was almost word for word exactly what I said to trigger the year from hell.
We are now very clear what the conditions are for both and The Door always beckons.
Also being 50+ and the kids gone also puts realistic mmv in sharp focus for both parties.
I know that to many it will read and sound like a power play.
When I said those words to Mrs deti I had finally been pushed too far. I felt I was in a position of having nothing left to lose. I honestly didn’t care whether she chose me, or chose the courthouse and lawyers and property division and court orders. If she had said “leave it”, I was fully prepared to hire a lawyer and divvy it all up. I hated my married life, and resented Mrs deti, so much that I was honestly ready to wrap up the marriage.
It’s really quite amazing how reality brings proper priorities into sharp focus. I lead the family, I get what I need and most of what I want, and Mrs. deti is a much better wife.
But I’ve told Mrs. deti more than once that I will never, ever go back to the marriage the way it was 6 years ago. And if Mrs. deti does want to go back to that, she’ll be going back to it without me and without a marriage to me. I either get what I want and need, or we’re done, and that’s just the end of it. It would cost me to walk away, but my self respect and dignity will be well worth it. But it won’t be necessary as long as Mrs. deti carries her weight as my wife.
It takes two, and that means wives have to carry their burdens. It’s not going to be just me doing all the work. Fuck that sideways.
And she likes both the security of a man she can’t push and the drama tingles of the Door right there.
Of my 30 years the first 5 pre kids were great.
The next 7 of yoiung kids were great, we both love bering parents.
The next 13 were a long slide of boredom for her and overwork for me.
Then the year from hell including several months seperated.
The last four have been great.
Both pick up their burdens and both explicitly state their needs.
I learned I was an asshole in ways I didnt know existed. And I changed.
Just as she stopped being a frumpy bitch.
The big thing?
It forced us to get lives.
Individual lives. Interesting, personalized lives, for each of us.
Lives worth sharing, worth someone wanting.
I was Mr manager. Boring suit guy running a hospital. Boring.
Then I Became Horseman!
Yeah the guy who rides horses, pulls fence and mucks stables in a suit (cause I go right from the car to the barn.)
She was ms shopping channel haugen-dass. Now she is Cottage Flower lady with the garden.
We looked into the Abyss, found ourselves again, became interesting and interested and made a choice to stay together. And we decide every morning.
If I get boring I expect to get kicked to the curb. And I will to her in a heartbeat if needed.
Its not a powerplay.
Its two adults being adults having adult lives making adult expectations.
I don’t know if it was that melodramatic.
I think i probably went from “the worthless asshole I’m married to” to “I kind of sort of care about this guy who works his ass off for this family and if I don’t care for him, I will lose him”.
I don’t have a lot of illusion about this. Fear and need are great motivators. She knew we’d be done if things didn’t change immediately, and she needs my financial support, and our children need their father, and she doesn’t want to walk back to her parents with her tail between her legs explaining how she had detonated her marriage to smithereens. But she is content, as am I. Beats the hell out of how it was.
“Its not a powerplay.
Its two adults being adulktrs having adult lives making adult expectations.”
Not a bad way to look at it.
I had to sack up and speak up and say “I’m not getting what I want and need, and I need you to provide it for me, and if you don’t, i’ll get it somewhere else”.
She had to grow up and stop acting like a bitch all the time and stop spewing her emotions all over the place.
6 years is a good stretch. Your wife seems more in tune with reality than mine. My wife will make a minor course correction after I get fed up enough to call her out, but then she back to her old tack in a week or two.
Seen a couple of the divorced moms eyeballing me before and after football practice (I coach). Not on your life honey…
Nope, when I finish my sentence in another 8 years when my youngest finishes high school, I’ll be walking away a free man. What was the name of that beach village in Mexico again?
For the most part, the men’s sphere helps men sack up. Hopefully, women are out there telling other women to grow up.
Men’s main problem is that they want and need things from their women, but they don’t say what they want and need. They’re scared to death of offending their women, because if she gets too pissed off, she’ll leave and they erroneously think this is the only pussy they are ever going to get and if she leaves he can’t replace her easily. They’ve been taught and trained that the second worst crime in the entire world is to piss off a woman; and the absolute worst crime in the entire world is pissing off THEIR OWN women.
Consequently they are absolutely petrified of doing or saying anything that might make her mad. They’re scared to say “no”. They’re scared to say “I want this, I need that”. They’re scared to put down boundaries. And they put up with the worst, shittiest, most entitled behavior from women, most of all their own women.
Women’s main problem is that they’re not required to grow the fuck up. No one’s ever told her “no” before. They have yet to realize they are NOT going to get everything they want and they cannot make everyone do everything they want. They refuse to accept that the world doesn’t revolve around them. And everyone has always put up with their emotional vomitfests where they puke their rage, fear, frustration, anger, whatever, all over whoever is around, and usually after they get married, it’s the husband. They act like raging bitches in their marriages, like spoiled 5 year old girls who’ve never been told “no”. They have never learned to compromise or to give.
And it doesn’t help when so many men tolerate this shitty entitled cunty behavior, in hopes of getting a whiff of pussy.
Men, sack up and stop putting up with shitty behavior from women.
Women, grow up and stop acting like ragebitches, and learn to give and compromise.
No pussy is worth tolerating out of control emotions and ragebitch behavior. None. Not even a wife.
I fucked up my marriage when I stopped being an asshole and listening to/ following beta advice… ie church dudes.
While I was fighting for my life she was fucking another dude. So I have been a cuckold too. When I was a kid, folks called me rooster becuase I would fuck just about anything and fight everyfuckingone for nofuckingreason. Some how post divorce, after getting fucked by church and state, I hit maxim 0fg. Still ain’t found any fucks to give. Which has worked out extremely well for me but even now with all I have built, bidness, houses, farm, boat, fishing cabain cars, bikes, trucks, cash, young kids, The Girls etc etc ………I will put a gun in one pocket, cash in the other, grab my pit bull, set everything else I own on fire right before throwing my leg over my Harley and nevering look back before I ever put up with any bullshit from the church, state or a woman.
I’d rather be homeless, robbing liquor stores and slinging meth then betray myself again like I did when I was married
“Men’s main problem is that they want and need things from their women, but they don’t say what they want and need.” (TheDeti)
You have children, so you know … if you don’t set boundaries and maintain them, children can’t handle it. There are some children who always respect those boundaries, and there are some who always push them.
Women are the same. We need our boundaries. We need them clear and firm and constant. We need a leader to follow. when men don’t lead we’re left with the leadership defaulting to us, and that’s nothing but disaster … which is why marriages fail … which is why so much of the church is failing.
” the more firm and constant the boundaries, the happier the wife.”
Kinda like Eve and God’s boundaries, right. Those were pretty firm and constant.
Back In The Saddle:
I’ve never spilled my guts completely anywhere in the sphere though I have been tempted many times. Lets just say … not all experiences turn out as rosy as Deti’s and the Horseman’s. Ton went thru hell and so did I. And like Ton … I have never really recovered.
Sounds like Ton and I may have had a similar pattern … I too had no role models and had not discovered the Red Pill … I did wise up that I was getting fucked over in my marriage and put my foot down … straighten up … or else. And I got my life destroyed.
I would say that most men are blue pill … the old 80-20 rule again. And given the court system many of this 80% will end up destroyed too … they go into not knowing what to do and even worse their blue pill conditioning … leaves them thinking that even if bad things happen to other men … it would never happen to them … because they are “good guys”, “doing the right thing” and “playing by the rules”. Most of these men will end up destroyed, broke, paying child support for kids they can’t see and have no control over … while their mothers brainwash them to hate him. They will be emotionally abused for years and years. Threatened with jail … pay for kids you can’t be a parent to and who hate your guts …. or go to jail. Or they’ll be threatened with jail for some sort of abuse. All all a woman has to do is accuse a man of something … especially in child custody situation and the man is considered guilty. No crime. No evidence. And the mom wins and the dad goes to jail.
My own sister did this to my ex brother in law for years … he lived in fear every time he to interact with my sis … literally his life could have been destroyed every week picking up the kids or dropping them off … for years … until he gave the fuck up and quit being a dad to his own kids. Just didn’t care anymore. As Ton indicated 0fg. My sis and my mom were complaining about him one day … what a lousey father he was and how could he give up on his own kids. This was well after I’d taken the RP, so knew exactly why he acted like that and like Bloom tried to use it as a teaching moment. But they had Vaginas so had 0fg for what men go thru. Just didn’t care … blame men.
Guess I’m just cautioning all the men who read this. Deti and Horseman are rare examples of when things work out … be glad they are giving you the benefit of their experience. At the same time realize that most men … the vast majority of men … will not come out so well. Blue Pill men are not capable of realizing the level of deception and hate that women are capable of … especially when it comes to their own welfare or that of their kids. They literally will stop at nothing to destroy you and steal everything you make and/or will ever make. No lie is to much and they are capable of truly evil things … things you would never, ever in a million years think they would do. The loving wife that you married years ago will morph into a lying monster you will not recognize. Just sayin … most men will never see it coming and by the time they do … their life is pretty much over.
So the caution is this. If you do lay down the law … she straightens up her act … become a good wife … or its over. You better be prepared to be the next Ton … after you get out of jail and are broke and since you had your name smeared thru the papers as a sex predator/wife beater/domestic abuser/substance abuser … you will never be employable ever again. You better … better be prepared to get on your Motorcycle with nothing but the shirt on your back … and ride into the sunset …. because that will be the only future you will ever have … should the woman you are trying to get rid of … decide to burn it all down.
I think many men … understand this intuitively … its why they put up with being treated like crap for years … sexless marriages … fat wives who treat them like crap. They know … if it comes to divorce … they will get the shaft. The real truth … is they actually think we still have a legal system in the US and if they go to court … there will be truth, justice, and the law will be enforced fairly. The truth they don’t know and will never admit … is our legal system is run by a bunch of man-hating cunts and SJW white knights who think it is their obligation to DESTROY MEN and REWARD WOMEN FOR BEING LYING MANIPULATIVE CUNTS. MEN ARE GUILTY AT ACCUSATION … WOMEN ARE NEVER HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ANYTHING. And that is how they are going to be treated … they have no idea and will not see it coming.
Some people win the lottery. Most don’t.
You’re correct about all of it, and my situation. The only reason I can tell the story I can is because I was very lucky. I was able to exact pressure on Mrs deti using shame, her sense of responsibility, her fear of failure, her fear of losing her meal ticket, and most of all, her fear of having to face family and friends with an admission that she exploded her own marriage and thereby ruined the lives of her kids. She cared much, much more about those last two things than I knew.
Much of the reason we’re still married is because of our kids. I am very confident that if we had not had kids, I would have ended the marriage. But my kids deserved for me to give their mother a second chance. And it’s not the kids’ fault their mother was a ragebitch and their dad was a pussy beta bitchboy who put up with their mother’s emotional pukefests.
But if she had cheated, if it ever comes out she cheated, or if she ever cheats, it’s game over, and I don’t care what that costs me. I will not take back a woman who cheated. I’ve got too much self respect for that.
Yes, it would have been very hard to divorce her, it would have cost me a shitton of money, it would have traumatized my children, and it would have exacted an enormous emotional toll, just as it has done with you. But I look at it this way: My dignity and self respect will no longer allow me to put up with bullshit from Mrs. Deti. My dignity and self respect are worth way too much to me to look the other way at any kind of cheating, and she knows if I find out she’s ever cheated or ever cheats at any time, it’s over. I will not sacrifice one more ounce of dignity or self respect for a woman who does that to me.
I have children. I want my children to see a father who won’t put up with bullshit from a woman. I especially want to teach my son that he must never, ever tolerate poor treatment from a woman, especially a woman who has unfettered access to all his resources and all he is. Access to my money, time and labor comes at a price, and that price is unwavering respect and submission to me. She won’t respect me or submit to me? She’s gone. Will I have to pay alimony and child support? Maybe. But that would be a small price to pay in exchange for keeping my dignity and self respect intact.
Another thing I get is peace of mind. No, I don’t know if Mrs deti cheated. And if she did, i’ll never know. Women are very, very good liars. Exceptionally good liars. If she did cheat, her friends will know and the guy she cheated with will know, and they will never ever tell me. They’ll take that to the grave. But both Mrs. deti and I know that if she ever did and I discovered it, the marriage would be over, and I would shame her mercilessly by telling every one of her friends, church buddies, siblings, and parents every lascivious detail of her conduct and all her past mistreatment of me. All the past litany of grievances would be aired in an exceedingly public way. All her friends and her parents would get to see all, and i mean ALL, of the dirty laundry. I would tell everyone. I would detail it in the court pleadings. I would take a deposition of her in the divorce and make her admit to it under oath, and then send a copy of the testimony to her parents, friends, and pastor.
I know this comes off as revenge fantasy. OK, whatever. To me, it’s just consequences. “Wife, you do X, then Y will happen. You do Z, then I will do A and B and C.” It’s really just that simple. Women need to be reminded: Actions have consequences. There are consequences for your conduct.
And I get the peace of mind of knowing that if I ever had to do this, I would no longer be responsible to listen, to care, to handle tasks or chores for her or with her. All I’d have to do is write her a check every month. I can live on very little – I’ve lived on a quarter of what I currently earn. I did it before; I can do it again. The peace and serenity that can come from a life of solitude and no responsibility other than making an ex wife little more than another bill to be paid can be freeing.
Saddle, it’s worth your dignity. It’s worth your self respect. It’s worth the lessons learned. It hurts like hell. It’s costing a lot of money. But recovery can be made. Many men have done this. Have I had to do it? No. I was very lucky. I still am. It could very, very easily have gone a different way, and it still could. The difference is that now, I’m not afraid of it happening. I have a plan in place if it does happen. I know what to do if it does happen. I can replace Mrs deti if I have to. Do I want to? No. Can I do it if I have to? Yes. Do I have the option of not replacing Mrs. deti if she leaves me and if I don’t want another woman (women) in my life? Yes, I could do that too. Do I want to go through a nasty, costly, gut wrenching divorce? Hell no, and I don’t want my kids to endure it either. Can I do it if I have to? Yes, and it would be hard, but I could do it, and eventually I would be OK after a lot of major adjustments.
See, I used to think I couldn’t do that. I used to think I couldn’t replace Mrs deti, that she was the only woman who would ever ever want me, that I would die without her, and that I would never ever be able to live without her, and that my life would be absolutely over if she left me. I was scared to death that I’d lose everything. The difference between then and now, is that I am not afraid of this anymore. It could happen to me, it would hurt a lot, it would cost me a lot of money, and a lot of things about my life would change. But I will not die, I can live without her and a marriage, and my life will not end. I will be OK.
I don’t know that these things won’t happen to me. But I know I will be OK if they did happen to me, and I know they will not destroy me if they did happen to me. I didn’t say life would be great. I didn’t say life would be optimal. I am saying I would be OK.
I hope this helps a little bit.
I might lose everything. But I once had nothing, and was able to accumulate some things before.
I know what it is to have nothing, and I can do it again if I had to. I can build back up from nothing again if I have to.
Back In The Saddle:
Deti, you still have the remnants of your blue pill conditioning intact. You need to re-read my post. Take it from me … after 2 yrs of fighting my divorce in court, I fired my lawyer and represented myself pro-se. For another 4 yrs. To the JSC, the COA and to the SC court of the state where I lived. I know a little bit about the cunts who run the male incarceration system … more than most lawyers do.
You could have had a deposition and had your wife admit things and had all her shitty behavior brought out. And then the judge would have slapped a gag order on it … so nobody knew but you, your lawyer, her, her lawyer and the judge who was keeping it all under wraps. And why would the man-hating cunt of a judge want to keep it all under wraps ? Because she’s going to rule against you anyway and doesn’t want anyone to know the truth.
Then the cunt running the case would slap a restraining order on you preventing you from revealing what was said to ANYONE ELSE. And as soon as you opened your mouth (or maybe you wouldn’t) … you’d be hauled into court, held in contempt, and thrown into jail. AND HELD THERE AS LONG AS THE CUNT WANTED. For example, your 10 yr old child would be taken into custody and questioned … did Daddy ever tell you about Mommy not being a good Mommy ? AND YOU”D GO TO JAIL FOR AS LONG AS THE JUDGE WANTED. Mostly to ensure you got fired from your job or if you owned a business it was destroyed. Once you’re broke and can’t afford a lawyer … you get a lawyer that works for the judge (the system) or even worse … you take it over for yourself … so that can tear you to shreads. There is no limit to how long a judge can keep you in jail on contempt charges and they don’t even have to charge you with a crime. Here is a link to an article I recently ran into … not a child custody dispute but you get the idea: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/man-in-jail-2-years-for-refusing-to-decrypt-drives-will-he-ever-get-out/
I’m just saying … and you admitted it … you got lucky. The man-hating cunts and SJW white knights who run the legal system will make sure that you did not win. You will never win. The more you fight the more they will destroy you and the worse it will be for you. They have the power and are evil and you are trying to do the right thing. YOU WILL LOSE. THEY WILL MAKE SURE OF IT. Any male who fights the system and wins … is a threat to the system because it would give hope to other men … THEY LITERALLY WILL KILL YOU IF YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO YOU. THEY WILL KILL YOU OR YOU WILL DIE IN PRISON, IF THAT”S WHAT IT TAKES. THEY WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO WIN.
Deti … take the Red Pill swallow it … all of it … that’s the truth that not even you wants accept. If you had attempted to fight your wife the way you thought you could and still think you could … you would probably would have ended up DEAD. You would not have won. You would have been destroyed just like all the other men out there. Even the other men who thought they knew better.
I’m just saying … you think you had a strategy to fight back … but you didn’t. Fortunately … your wife thinks that would have worked … so you got what you wanted. But if she really wanted to burn it down … you would have ended up just like everyone else.
Won’t argue with you about your experiences, or even about your opinion on my blue pill conditioning. Perhaps it looks that way to you, and maybe it’s because you have experienced something I have not.
I can tell you this, that it depends very much on the outward character of the woman you’re dealing with. Yes, Mrs deti could very much have turned out to be like the ex Mrs Saddle, in which case I might have had to do different things.
In a situation in which you described, I’d probably use the tactic of mutually assured destruction. We would fight over everything in court, we would deplete the marital assets so there is nothing to divide, and I would fight for absolutely as much child custody time as possible to minimize or avoid child support obligations. I would probably quit my job or take a lower paying one.
Perhaps I would be destroyed financially. But it would not kill me. And even if it did destroy or kill me, at least it would be on my terms, and at least I would go down fighting. And if i came out on the other side having nothing but the shirt on my back and what fits in my car, at least I wouldn’t have to live in the same house or support a woman who would do those things to me. Even if I lived alone in poverty the rest of my life, at least I could say I fought, and I no longer have to live with my body tethered to a woman who hates me and deprives me for that rest of my life. Even if the only things I get out with are dignity and self respect, that’s enough, because I will have said “you don’t get to do that to me. I don’t have to put up with that shit.”
I’ve known a lot of men who have gone through some pretty nasty, pretty expensive divorces, and come out on the other side OK. BV who posts here occasionally has been through a bad divorce and hasn’t seen his son in years. He’s OK. Ton went through a divorce. He’s OK. Spawny and Farm Boy have been divorced. They’re OK.
Is it great? No. Is it optimal? No. But they did what had to be done.
No, I’ve not been through it. But I came damn close. And what am I going to do? Lay down and take it? Lay down and die? Lay down and say “this is just my lot in life”? Hell no.
If I’m going down, I’m going down fighting. Nobody is taking me out without one hell of a fight on their hands. I’ve survived bad shit before. I can do it again if I have to, even if I have to fight and even if I lose every dollar and every item of stuff I ever had to buy for us and the kids. Will it be easy? No. But nothing in life is, including keeping your dignity and self respect. And if that’s all I come out with, I’m OK with that. Because I can use those to build something else for myself.
And, no, I wouldn’t end up literally dead. If I’m dead, who’s going to pay the alimony and child support the system depends on? No, it’s very much in my wife’s interest that I remain very much alive and kicking. It’s also very much in her interest that she remain married to me so she can exercise as much influence as possible over how the dollars are spent, and not fight over it all the time with a contentious ex husband. It’s very much in her interest that she have a man around to fix shit, move shit, pay for shit, and keep bad shit away.
Shame so many women don’t understand their interests.
“You could have had a deposition and had your wife admit things and had all her shitty behavior brought out. And then the judge would have slapped a gag order on it … so nobody knew but you, your lawyer, her, her lawyer and the judge who was keeping it all under wraps.”
Even if a judge did this (and I doubt they would, because gag orders are usually used for celebrity divorces and if there is financially sensitive information like trade secrets or corporate forms involved in the divorce), I could still talk about her testimony in the divorce. I would be free to talk about anything she said in the deposition. Judges usually don’t care so much about protecting a party from disclosure of unsavory facts. A court is a public place, courthouses and court files are public. It takes a lot of showing of a compelling or important interest to slap a gag order on proceedings where minors are not the substance of the proceedings. Juvenile court is confidential and closed. Divorce court isn’t.