Over at Dalrock’s, our old friend Deti wrote,
Re your linked article discussing the Wilcox piece, what men always notice is that the message is always
“Men, this is what you need, and this is what you should be to get what you need. This is why marriage is good for you and why you need it. If you don’t want these things or think that marriage is obligation and burden, then you’re obviously a misogynist who won’t man up and do his duty. You’re obviously an overgrown kid who won’t grow up and take responsibility.”
Nowhere in ANY of these pieces by Wilcox or Prager or Geraghty is there any question asked, any circumspection, about why men are really saying these things. No where is there any question asked whether women are doing the things required of them, are cultivating the skills and mindset for marriage, and whether these women make good marriage partners. Nowhere is anyone asking what women bring to the table. Nowhere is anyone asking if women are willing to commit their minds, hearts, lives, bodies and livelihoods to their marriages, as is being demanded of men.
And Dalrock’s covered it quite well. It’s much easier to flog men, criticize men, and accuse men. Calling women to account is hard. Criticizing women and holding their feet to the fire is hard. And it’s hard because it just feels bad. Because when you criticize a woman, she feels bad. And cries, and complains. And points her fingers at you and wails to the crowd, “He made me FEEL BAD!” And then the crowd gangs up on the man who rightly criticized her. And the man who criticized her is chastised, ostracized, eviscerated and excoriated. All because he said “yeah, but the women aren’t doing it right either. Here are the things women need to do/say/be.”
But no, we can’t have that. We cannot have anyone correcting or criticizing women. Unless it’s another woman. We can’t have men, husbands, telling THEIR OWN WIVES that what they’re doing is wrong and they need to stop doing it now and they need to repent and do it the right way. We can’t have pastors telling the older women in the church to be quiet and ask their husbands. We can’t have anyone telling the strong independent woman anything, because if we do, she’ll collapse into a sobbing heap while the men around her gang up on and destroy the man who criticized her.
That’s why Wilcox et al. won’t correct women. First, they really don’t think women are the problem. Second, they’re terrified of what women will do, and then what the mass of men (i.e. white knights) will do.
So why is it so difficult to criticize women? Deti suggests that it comes from two sources, than women are not the problem, and that men are terrified of the response that they might receive for doing so.
Let us consider some possibilities
I. Yes, women are wonderful. At least that is the perception. This probably comes from the fact that in times past, women were encouraged to wonderful (e.g. selfless, honest, industrious). Sometimes they were. It seems that in the modern day, the perceived aspiration stuck, but the execution didn’t.
II. Men are embarrassed that women are doing bad things, and that they can’t control them. It is better to just pretend that the women are just fine.
III. Men are perceived to be big and strong. Attacks on women would be perceived as an unfair fight. Men in competitions have rules, and this would be against those rules. It doesn’t matter that the contest is not physical, but one of ideas — it would still be bullying.
IV. Pretty women who turn on their charms are just hard to resist for many men. Who could get mad at something like that?
V. Men are used to sucking it up. They have always sucked it up. It is what men historically have done. They would be girlie men if they did not, or so it would be said. Why should this situation be any different?
Please feel free to add your own suppositions.
Addendum by Deti
“So why is it so difficult to criticize women?”
The two criticisms I mentioned at Dalrocks are the ones which come up specifically with evangelical Christians, in Churchianity/Cuckstianity. (1) Women aren’t the problem; and (2) men are pussies, terrified of what women and other men will do/say to them if they do criticize women.
Another possibility is that most men fear getting a reputation as an asshole who calls women out. Men are told if they are perceived as assholes, women won’t like them and they won’t get sex.
It seems to work exactly the opposite. Assholes finish first and get sex with women. Assholes get everything else too: money, power, jobs, work, influence, clout. Especially in a world where “asshole” means “man who stands up for himself and refuses to take bullshit.”
That, of course, tells us that more men need to incorporate more asshole into their lives.
A second reason , related to one of the reasons mentioned in my comment and FarmBoy’s post, is the differing “ingroups” and their nature. Men are in tribes, women are in herds. There’s a Team Woman; there is no Team Man. There are only tribes of men.
Notice that whenever a man is criticized, usually its the men from his own tribe doing the criticizing, and usually its for the purpose of getting him with the program. Because if he doesn’t, he’ll be out of the tribe. Men from other tribes don’t know enough about the guy to say anything about him.
It’s very different with women. Whenever a woman is criticized, from any source, or hurt, or ailing, all the women around her, no matter their affiliations, immediately close ranks around the ailing/criticized woman. ALL women do this, no matter where or what they are. Because all women feel deep kinship with all other women.
The evangelical Christian virgin defends the immoral, disease ridden slut. The pro-life housewife with 10 kids defends the nasty slut who’s had 3 abortions. The old woman defends the young, and vice versa. The married woman defends the young single naïve woman and the divorced woman. The virtue signaling white woman defends the black woman (but not too much vice versa, because race trumps everything else). The married woman defends the divorced woman. The faithful woman defends the adulteress. And so on. All women defend all other women.
I think this is a relic of evobio and evopsych, probably – eggs are expensive. We need every woman we can get to have babies and propagate the species, and to that end, every woman, every single solitary woman, MUST be saved and her life preserved at all costs. She will not be expelled from the herd no matter what she does or who she is, because goddamn it, we need her to have babies and take care of the young kids and the menfolk. We need every single one of the women we’ve got. None can be spared, none can be expended.
Addendum by RichardP
@ fuzzie: “Women complain and criticize men all day long, but we can’t say “boo”.
First, ditto deti.
Second – it’s not that men can’t say boo, it’s that saying boo does no good. Men who have lived with women for a while come to understand this. Men are dogs and women are cats. Dogs respond to commands. Cats don’t. Command all you want. That won’t change the nature of cats.
In the recent past, someone at Rational Male or Dalrock made a comment about this situation that resonated with me, roughly paraphrased: you manage women; you don’t command them. In other words, you “husband” them, in the truest meaning of the word. Manage situations, not the woman, in a way to get the response that you desire from the woman.
I think Rudyard Kipling’s poem “The Female of the Species” gets this more right than wrong:
The Female of the Species
“So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.”
As laid out by deti above, men criticize each other as a means of encouraging adherence to a standard / abstract justice. Most men understand the standard, and so will respond to the criticism from other men. They understand on some level that the criticism is designed to help them grow / make them better.
Women understand no such thing. Therefore, they must be “managed” or husbanded differently. To expect pastors to deal with women in the church the same as they deal with men, and get the same results, is foolishness.
Addendum by Ame,
Few women take correction or criticism from anyone, including other women – sometimes especially other women. women will herd together and dis the one correcting them in a nano-second.
I loved my late Mentor. she was an amazing woman, and I still miss her dearly after ten years. I would tell her of other women I thought could benefit from her mentor-ship, and she would always stop me and ask if they *really* wanted to learn. she was in her 70’s, and she’d already learned well that few women really and truly want correction and instruction. Sadly not one woman i thought could benefit from her instruction was willing to be mentored.
– – –
I’ve been kicked out of the herd a time or two for not following along blindly. I don’t like not being a part of the herd. I miss it.