Back In The Saddle Again – Maybe


One of my bucket list items is to improve and expand the knowledge base available for young men facing life’s challenges as represented by relationships with women. There was so much I had no clue about prior to my stepping off into the sexual swamps, having but a narrow and ill-lighted path to follow through a myriad of pitfalls. I hope to hang another dim lantern into the dark branches blocking the murky light for those who follow before I kick it.

We don’t usually get too close to reproductive issues here at Spawny’s, except to warn young men about the legal traps awaiting them if they make poor choices. But even the most carefully-considered and researched attempt leaves a young man ill-prepared for the changes that can enter a relationship once parenthood occurs.

A common complaint launched by new fathers is that their former lovers aren’t interested in sex now that they are mothers. But I’ve not seen anything which explains in some detail why this is.

I guess Huffington Post reporter Catherine Pearson noticed this as well, and actually asked 10 new mothers why. I found their answers to be most illuminating.

To qualify myself, I am the father of four now-adult children. I’ve been through this scenario more than once. I have earned my Dad Stripes and wear them proudly. And while I’ve posted about the issues I’ve had with Mrs B regarding sex over the years, few of these problems offered here entered my life with any duration. Once things healed, we rapidly got back to the original problems we faced prior to pregnancy. That isn’t always the case for some. The quotes I offer are the ones I think young men need to know about, for some will face the problems the comments reveal.

My birthing classes did little more than touch upon the possibilities that things “might” be different post-partum. I don’t have any reason to believe things are much different today, unless a couple has a very good pre-natal instructor.

One thing which the classes do touch on, but don’t really explain much, is that many mothers-to-be don’t sleep well. They can’t get comfortable, and the baby does move around more toward the end. And those kicks! I got to feel one of my kids launch a World Cup-class boot. Nocturnal indigestion is nothing in comparison! So once a new mom has delivered, she’s going to be more interested in sleep for a while. This should pass in about 4 to 6 weeks under normal conditions.

This quoted post offers up comments from some mothers who had good experiences resuming sex:

It was like riding a bike. Just feeling that closeness to my husband, and connecting with him again in that way was incredible. Yes, I orgasmed.

There was no way we were going to make it six weeks anyway.

We had sex two and a half weeks after my son was born, and two weeks after my daughter. I wanted to! It was soon after giving birth, but I didn’t feel uncomfortable. I wasn’t bleeding anymore (and I wasn’t wearing pads) and I wasn’t in pain. I felt I was actually feeling much closer to just being me than I had in a long time. It didn’t feel painful, maybe just a bit of burning. Deciding it was OK to take 20 minutes to have sex and relax and just feel like, “this is still normal life”, was very therapeutic.

See? It’s not ALWAYS hopeless! NANMALT! So, it is natural for young fathers to expect the resumption of sex post-partum. If this didn’t happen for the majority, there would be volumes spoken about what to do about the problems which cause it. But, the “rare” exceptions aren’t deemed common or important enough to have more than lame platitudes ready to offer, leaving a young couple to work things out for themselves.

Let’s start with a basic issue of the mother, and one which I think plays a large role in those women who never get back to an active sexual life:

I kept thinking, ‘A baby came out of my vagina, and now my husband wants to put his penis in there?!’

I was a mom. My breasts weren’t for sexual pleasure; they were for breastfeeding…

slide_475018_6480330_free

My skin was for providing warmth and comfort for my child. I pushed a baby out of my vagina. Now my body was supposed to be used for sex, too?

This new mother has a completely different view of her physical self now that she’s a mother. She has changed her focus toward nurturing her child, which is normal and necessary. But there is an element of hostility toward the physical actions which repurposed her to maternalism, a hostility which indicates that she isn’t in any hurry to change back to being a lover. These are the rocks upon which many relationships founder, as the male partner discovers he’s no longer welcome to be with his woman. He likely won’t know anything about what just hit him in a very sensitive place. He’s never been prepared for the possibility that it could happen to him.

I’m posting some additional quotes which I think apply as partial explanation of the mother’s incentive to feel this hostility before I comment further:

The angles of my body seemed…off.

Everything had been so centered on the baby. But just like the birth didn’t go the way I’d hoped, and breastfeeding was harder than I’d thought, sex was so different. It hurt, and there was more dryness than I expected…I really thought, OK. Maybe it’s just always going to be painful and different now. And I remember thinking, how are we ever going to have another baby now that I hate sex?!

I knew the first couple of times would be painful, but I did not expect to experience discomfort for that long.

Sex the first few times post-delivery was terrifying for me, like I was re-experiencing the emotional trauma of childbirth. I felt the same kind of suspense and fear of the unknown I felt when having the baby. It felt so destructive to be inviting something into my body at the same point where my beautiful baby girl had just come out of eight weeks earlier. Physically, it was painful around my G-spot…for about a year.

My first baby was removed with forceps, and at my 10-week checkup, my archaic OB told me to have some wine and relax — sex would be fine. But everything hurt. Sitting was terrible. Standing was terrible. At that postpartum checkup, the doctor inserted a speculum and I thought I was going to die.

When we did have sex, I remember it feeling kind of like a sharp Hot Pocket was being inserted into my vagina. It sucked. It hurt. Nothing about that area wanted to be messed with…it took close to a year for the ache to go away.

Men view sex as a means of closeness, while women tend to see closeness as a requirement for sex. But if sex hurts, and if things don’t get better for a long time as attested by these new mothers, it’s possible that reconnection isn’t happening. Mothers who see themselves as baby nurturers and not lovers could convert this temporary pain into permanent trauma, driving a persistent wedge into the relationship which made them mothers, and severing connection with the men who chose to be a parent with them.

Even those who should know more than most of us don’t necessarily expect to have troubles:

“I’m a family physician, so I understand how the body changes postpartum, but I was still surprised.”

I have two children, and the youngest is 12 weeks. With my first, the whole leave was kind of a romantic time. We were cuddling, we were handsier with each other, so I thought, “We’re going to have sex and it’s going to be awesome”. It wasn’t. My vagina was a bit dryer, so we had to use lubrication…

Everything took longer for me. It took longer for me to get aroused when we kissed. When we were getting intimate, it felt hard for me to orgasm. I felt like my breasts were off limits, because I was breastfeeding, so that was a big part of our sexual relationship that was off the table.

A man faced with such a situation eventually has to make a decision. Will he wait for her to change back – if ever? Or will he come to see no future remaining in this relationship and decide to move on? Considering that few men have any clue how long this healing process might take, they have no concept of how long they need to be patient and understanding – especially if they have partners who have no desire to satisfy their men by alternative means of sexual expression. After all, even if they were willing, that would be slutty! No self-respecting mother would EVER act like a tramp! What would her child think?

And what of the new father’s relationship with his child? Immature men can come to see their own offspring as an interloper who stole his lover from him, especially if he’s left to his own devices, to care for his own needs, because mom no longer sees him. And the world is filled with such kids, separated from their rejected fathers who should have “just understood and been patient” over something they had no inkling was coming to confront them.

This next quote from a mom illustrates how a mom often thinks. She at least recognized that a problem existed, and worked out a solution:

Willing to have sex, but can’t focus with baby in the room

We had sex for the first time about a month and a half after my baby was born, and throughout it I was looking in the other direction — at where my baby was sleeping. I thought I would be OK having the baby in the same room, so we could keep an eye on her and take as much time as we wanted. But I couldn’t enjoy it. My eyes were constantly on her, thinking, please don’t wake up; please don’t feel cold; please don’t start rolling all of a sudden. My body was doing one thing, but my mind was completely on her. After a couple of attempts, we decided to do it in the other room.

Too many new parents might not HAVE another room, a problem which, over time, could prove insurmountable. A mom so focused on her baby after a while can’t see her partner as anything but another demand upon her, and another relationship dies when she gets to “When will he grow up and leave me alone”.

Baby illness might be the cause of problems. This couple produced a child with cystic fibrosis, and caring for such a child takes a lot of time and energy. Parents who might want more children would struggle with the probability that they could have another, and the fear of this could seriously inhibit sexual activities. This couple sought professional assistance, and managed to work through their fears:

It wasn’t until after all of that [worked out] that I finally felt like, OK. I think it’s safe to have sex. But we still had to talk through it. We had to say to each other, “This is safe. It’s going to be OK. And it’s OK for us to have our time back.” The sex, that first time, was really emotional. It felt like such a relief to have that part of our relationship restored, and to know my husband wasn’t scared of me — even after knowing a big baby came out of there, and everything we’d been through.

Yet there are some who never get back to “our time” due to special needs children. A closely-focused mom will only ever see her sick child. Once a mother, always a mother. But once a life is enough!

Keep these examples in your minds, young men! That cute hottie you’re pursuing just might experience these things if your relationship with her gets to that point. Are you ready to deal with it? Or is this something you know you aren’t up for? Be certain you are willing to take this on if you don’t end the game and move on before things get complicated.

You’ll thank me later when you watch your friends get divorced.

If Rory Banwell wants the photo removed, just ask. I’ll take it down if you wish.

Tagged with:
Posted in Blurkel, Marriage, RedPillClassroom, Why
213 comments on “Back In The Saddle Again – Maybe
  1. BuenaVista says:

    Or, a lot of women marry men for semen and dollars. They use sex to acquire both. Once they have both, a dick is just an inefficient, messy artificial insemination catheter. It’s pretty easy to identify them: they’re the size of houses.

    I’ll confess that I believe this phenomena is true but haven’t experienced it.

    Perhaps TMI, but a girlfriend is crazy for breast stimulation. I confess, I’m a leg man, I found this confusing. My ex- actually didn’t like it. Finally, I asked her (she’s had children, and nursed them), “Isn’t a bit confusing, having sex in this fashion, with all those memories of your children nursing?” She explained, “Don’t you know some women orgasm while nursing?” It took a while to get that insight out of my brain. Ah, the furtive and dark mysteries of female desire.

    Pigs, incidentally, only suckle at one teat. One of them is “theirs” and fights ensue if an orphan is introduced into an existing litter. I now know I am a higher order mammal: I don’t have this problem.

    Liked by 4 people

  2. Tarnished says:

    Trigger warning for Yoda this entire post needs.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Liz says:

    I actually felt pretty good about my body after my pregnancies. DURING pregnancies, no. I hate being fat. But after, I was thin with huge tits (but they hurt to be touched). I didn’t have problems with the sex thing or any “confusion” between babies and sex with my husband (though the orgasm through breastfeeding thing sure never happened).
    The only problem for me was constant exhaustion. It’s hard to feel amorous when you’re drop-dead tired all the time (to the point of hallucination even…there were portions where I had blackouts, I was in a minor car accident and didn’t even remember it).

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Tarnished says:

    Keep these examples in your minds, young men! That cute hottie you’re pursuing just might experience these things if your relationship with her gets to that point. Are you ready to deal with it? Or is this something you know you aren’t up for?

    These are good questions for women too, especially those who were younger siblings or sheltered from responsibilities growing up. Some of us know we aren’t up for this. We’ve seen what pregnancy and motherhood does to the bodies, minds, and lives of our older female relatives, and have decided (sometimes very early on) that, nope! Not for me!

    Children are wonderful. I love kids. I really enjoyed babysitting when I was younger, I look forward to being an aunt, and younglings flock to me naturally. But I know I wouldn’t feel the same way if I couldn’t give ’em back to their parents at the end of the day. 😉

    I wonder if a lot of these relationship issues are the result of this kind of mindset, but reversed? As BV said above, there are significant amounts of women who want babies but not the marriage instead of a relationship but no babies. If there is deception involved (we all know at least one couple with an…unplanned…kid) or even something more innocent, like a lack of real introspection, then a man and woman are going to be on 2 very different pages.

    Hell, sometimes they may not even be reading the same novel.

    Like

  5. Tarnished says:

    From Blurkel’s post:
    My skin was for providing warmth and comfort for my child. I pushed a baby out of my vagina. Now my body was supposed to be used for sex, too?

    And

    I felt like my breasts were off limits, because I was breastfeeding, so that was a big part of our sexual relationship that was off the table.

    BV said:
    “Isn’t a bit confusing, having sex in this fashion, with all those memories of your children nursing?”

    Liz said:
    I didn’t have problems with the sex thing or any “confusion” between babies and sex with my husband…

    It is interesting to see the different viewpoints here. On one hand, we have the idea of body parts going from being Sexual to Functional and needing to stay that way. On the other, the acceptance of the duality of the body. Curious…

    I admit to not understanding the non-duality view, as it seems to limit what people are capable of. It’d be like saying, “how can you use your penis for sex so willingly, it’s for urinating from?”

    The answer is, of course, because X is not Y. Things can have similarities but remain very separate in how they are used or performed.

    Like

  6. Liz says:

    I think the problems with post-baby sex are primarily:
    1) Body image (takes a while to get it back…including the tightness down there)
    2) Exhaustion
    3) Hormones (huge hormonal shifts, can lead to depression and so forth…I’m sure it differs depending on the individual)

    I’m a very affectionate person (with those close very to me). Babies, children, husband.
    Sex is about intimacy for me, not necessarily orgasms. Maybe if I was of the mind that “everything has to be right” for this or that…I can understand how it might impact sexuality. Sex kind of has to happen when you can work it in, with little ones around.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Yoda says:

    Sex kind of has to happen when you can work it in, with little ones around.

    Read that at first this way I did

    Sex kind of has to happen when you can work it in, if one wants little ones around.

    Feeling 900 years old I am

    Liked by 3 people

  8. Liz says:

    LOL! Well, it DOES have to happen if you want little ones around. 😉

    Liked by 3 people

  9. Lol. I never had a big O when nursing but I have heard that some women do. This is a good post topic Blurkel, not discussed nearly often enough. I personally loved being pregnant and didn’t have any negative symptoms like nausea or all the rest. I am not so sure I looked amazing but I felt amazing, I felt like a beautiful Goddess or something. I was amazed to know my body could do that, house and grow a new life! Wow! To feel the baby kick and move and have hiccups was fantastic. In fact I don’t think I felt truly comfortable in my own skin until I experienced that. Luckily I had an amazing doctor and everything went smoothly so I didn’t have the trauma of a horrific birth experience either, again it all seemed very natural and normal. The newborn phase was tough, like Liz says the exhaustion…weird sleep…constant (it seemed) nursing/diaper/nursing/diaper… After my first was born I was hyper alert for weeks, not depression, more like anxiety, fight or flight, worried was the baby breathing, was the baby ok, was I doing it “right?” That peaked around four months after baby when I hit plain old exhaustion and finally slept for five hours straight (five hours straight, oh it seemed like bliss!!!) things got easier as baby got older and didnt seem so small and fragile and helpless, was sleeping for longer stretches, wasn’t nursing as frequent, etc. i was able to relax and start enjoying the wonder of it all again. I could see how a man could feel lost in that preoccupation of a new mom. I saw a statistic once that the most common timing for a divorce was wi 2 years of having a child, and I can believe it. It’s tough on a relationship, or can be. It’s all consuming, having very young children who are totally reliant upon you for their every need. One has to set their own needs aside and that can be hard to adjust to, especially if there is little family support to give new parents a break. No time to yourself, no time as a couple, no privacy. Partners can start feeling like the other is getting off easy, doing less, that can cause resentment. I remember being jealous my husband got to go to work and get a “break” (stupid, I know!), that it felt like his life hadn’t really changed while it seemed like everything had in mine. At the same time I know he had his own worries about being that provider, and he carried a lot of stress about not failing on that front and his drinking really escalated, which was not good. Anyway, it’s good to talk about this, so new parents can see all that’s normal, and also that it will pass, to just hang in there, and the ship will right itself with time, and life will be fun and easy and all that again, and yes you’ll find your way back to each other as a couple and you will figure it out — as long as nobody lets go. Just don’t let go. That would be my advice!

    Liked by 4 people

  10. Wait sex leads to babies???? What???

    Lol, kidding! 🙂 I knew that.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Tarnished says:

    Trigger Warning for Yoda, even though I was good and didn’t get graphic at all. 😛

    Sex is about intimacy for me, not necessarily orgasms.

    I’ve heard you and a lot of other women say this. It’s still confusing to me.

    I mean, yes, sex is absolutely about love and intimacy and sensuality and fun and stress relief. All that good stuff. But if one has sex and doesn’t…y’know…finish? How does that not hurt, physically? I read on that female health forum I’m subscribed to how there’s so many women who are fine with doing the whole deed (kissing, foreplay, oral, penetration) and it doesn’t matter to them if they orgasm or not.

    Mind = blown.

    If there’s no release *sometime* during the proceedings (not necessarily at the end and not necessarily via your partner’s actions…they could be your own), it feels like your inner muscles are being twisted, or like someone just punched your lower abdomen. Is this not a common thing? 😕
    I don’t get how it’s comfortable to reach the peak and then just, idk, plateau out without resolution?

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Tarnished says:

    Or maybe I’m misunderstanding Liz. It does happen, occasionally. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  13. @ tarn I am the same as Liz describes. Orgasams are great but not necessary for me to feel the experience is complete. I have not experienced pain like you describe.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Tarnished says:

    Huh. Okay.
    I wouldn’t be able to do that, it’d be too uncomfortable/painful and highly frustrating. Guess it isn’t typical. *shrug*

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Tarnished says:

    Feeling 900 years old I am

    You don’t look a day over 560. 🎂

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Yoda says:

    Trigger warning for Yoda this entire post needs.

    Women sharing like to do they do.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. @ tarn it almost sounds like what guys refer to as “blue balls.” Although I am not sure if that’s a real thing, maybe the guys could elaborate…

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Also don’t get me wrong, it’s all still highly enjoyable and erotic even w/o the big O. For me, anyway. 🙂 tmi!!!

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Tarnished says:

    That’s cool, Bloom. I’m glad it’s still enjoyable without it for you!

    Like

  20. Liz says:

    For me, there’s no “pain” Tarn…if I’m at that point it’s pretty easy to put me over the edge. On the other hand, I kind of prefer fewer Os because the experience is REALLY intense if I have fewer of them.
    I prefer fewer, Mike wants to give me more. It’s not like he can’t or won’t, it just takes time and I’m more down for frequent sex if I’m less sated. I mean, I have orgasms that are so intense I cry. I’m kind of useless after that. He likes sex everday.
    Obviously after all this time he knows my buttons really well.
    Usually I just like pleasing him…I know this sounds odd but it works out well for us.
    I’m sure everyone is different. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  21. Liz says:

    This topic is making me horny. LOL!
    Sorry Yoda…

    Liked by 3 people

  22. Tarnished says:

    Women sharing like to do they do.

    Blurkel the author is.
    Dude he be.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Tarnished says:

    Liz’s new profile pic:

    Liked by 3 people

  24. Liz says:

    LOL Tarn! 😀

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Tarnished says:

    I’m sure everyone is different.

    The main reason there are no manuals for this kind of thing. Too many differences between individual men and women!

    Liked by 1 person

  26. So that’s what’s under the frog helmet!

    Liked by 2 people

  27. Yoda says:

    Perhaps a rabbit more appropriate it would be

    Liked by 2 people

  28. Liz says:

    OMG!
    That is so precious, Tarn. I am seriously considering changing my gravatar image to that.
    I saved it to my desktop for future consideration. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  29. Tarnished says:

    Back to on topic stuff:

    A common complaint launched by new fathers is that their former lovers aren’t interested in sex now that they are mothers.

    If forums like Happy Bachelors or r/deadbedrooms are anything to go on, the lack of desire for sex begins to manifest even before motherhood in some cases…or even before marriage.

    Like

  30. Cill says:

    And how are you, brother Blurkel? A little bird told me you have been ill. I hope you are well again.
    All the best, brother B

    Liked by 2 people

  31. Cill says:

    TW

    I haven’t read all the OP yet, but regarding the breastfeeding orgasm. Yep. It happens.

    My earliest experience of sex it was. I was introduced to sex when far too young. I’ve often wondered if my freakish senses and sex drive are attributable to this. Tarn and I have these things in common: sex when too young, freakishly keen senses and huge sex drive. It does make me wonder.

    In my case it was the classic cliche. Yep, folks, it was the nanny wot done it, when my parents were
    overseas.

    (Since Yoda will have heeded the TW and won’t be reading this, I’ll lapse into doggerel Yodish at this point)

    Contrived for me to sleep in her bed she did. And yep, a ginormous, shuddering, moaning O from breastfeeding she did have.

    TW Ends

    Liked by 2 people

  32. Liz says:

    That’s awful, Cill. 😦
    I want to kick that nanny’s ass. >:-(

    Liked by 1 person

  33. JDG says:

    Sexual swamps are dark, murky, icky, and full of awful surprises. Even the sammiches there are questionable.

    Liked by 2 people

  34. Tarnished says:

    TW

    I’ve often wondered if my freakish senses and sex drive are attributable to this. Tarn and I have these things in common: sex when too young, freakishly keen senses and huge sex drive. It does make me wonder.

    We do have these things in common, though I was introduced at 10, and you were not even that, if I recall…
    Like Liz said: Cans of whoop-ass all around for people like your nanny and my stepfather. Scum that they are. 😡

    You should not wonder though, friend Cill. It’s been pretty well documented that people like us typically are promiscuous and/or have really high libidos, and are more succeptible to sensory stimulation (alternatively, some may become asexual as a coping mechanism).

    Unfortunately, as teens and adults many of us turn to recreational drugs, alcohol, smoking, or other addictions…luckily I’ve stayed far away from these traps. We also tend to mistake/use sex as comfort for ourselves and our mates. I can say I honestly have this problem. Not sure about yourself.

    http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/molested-child-promiscuous-adult

    PDF
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.sensoryconnectionprogram.com/sensory_defensiveness.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjf69eq1dLKAhXEqR4KHZhcA0IQFgguMAU&usg=AFQjCNEzynEW4cudajqeA4xNia3ObtcB9A&sig2=DufG3lKFAebQ85CEgKkbYw

    End of TW

    Liked by 2 people

  35. Cill says:

    I didn’t want to be depressing. The importance of first sex experience does interest me. To what extent does it affect sex drive, and if it’s at a very young age, can it affect physical development? Could it in some cases result in the type of acute senses that Tarn and I both have? If the answer to my last question is Yes, then quite frankly I am glad it happened.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. Cill says:

    Thanks Tarn. Our comments overlapped.

    My experience lacked the bullying and cruelty that you experienced. The acute senses put me in a position of advantage in a lot of situations. I can smell when people like or dislike me, for example. Not sure about the strong sex drive though. I could do with a bit less of that.

    I took cannabis once, could feel it affecting my senses and didn’t like it. Never been near drugs before or since. My only vices are sex and alcohol. The latter has been easy to control. The former is taking more time, but I’m getting there.

    Now I’m going to read the links you gave.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Two very differnt perspectives on being back in the saddle.

    Liked by 3 people

  38. Tarnished says:

    Potential TW

    My experience lacked the bullying and cruelty that you experienced.

    And for that, I am so very glad. Nobody deserves to be a toy for 7 years. I’m still pissed at the woman who took advantage of you, though. Words cannot even describe what I think of child abusers. If I believed in Hell…

    I took cannabis once, could feel it affecting my senses and didn’t like it. Never been near drugs before or since.

    I grew up in a family with some smokers and violent/angry alcoholics, so have never smoked nor gotten drunk. I do have a single glass of red wine 2-3 times a week to help with my tremors, and will indulge in a pint of beer during conventions with friends but that’s it. Never tried cannabis myself, but was in a college where it was glorified beyond belief so was around people who you could basically get a contact high just from sitting next to, lol. I have a feeling I’d react very poorly to it and am not in a rush to test said theory.

    If the answer to my last question is Yes, then quite frankly I am glad it happened.

    I…don’t feel the same way. In some ways, yes, it’s very cool having our enhanced senses, but it’s also very uncomfortable a lot of the time. I’m not even talking about the whole “being horny 24/7/365”, though that is reaaaally frustrating when there’s no outlet for months.

    No, I’m talking about the constant awareness. Of everything.
    My heartbeat. The wind in my hair. How the slight curve in my spine aches everyday. The feel of my clothing and the sun and smell of other people and the sound of florescent lights and TVs and computers and the way my tongue lies in my mouth and the tones of birdsong and the bug bite on my left ankle and how my hands never really, fully stop trembling and a host of other sensations that, as I understand it, most people have to focus on to be aware of consistently. Just incoming, all the time. It is exhausting to mentally sort out. For example, I’d love to not wear long pants and sleeves throughout the year, but then I wouldn’t have the minor dulling effects. At least you probably don’t have this problem, seeming as you’re in a private paradise. 🙂

    End of TW

    Liked by 1 person

  39. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    In reading the original post, I got madder and madder as it went on because of the potential to abuse the excuses laid out to not have sex.
    I remember a thread at a discontinued coed blog. The guy said his wife was very interested in sex until they got married. Her interest picked up again whe she wanted to get pregnant. The bulk of advice to him was to not help her to get pregnant.

    Liked by 3 people

  40. Tarnished says:

    The guy said his wife was very interested in sex until they got married. Her interest picked up again when she wanted to get pregnant. The bulk of advice to him was to not help her to get pregnant.

    This is a good example of why a male birth control pill is sorely needed. It would help to weed out the women who actually enjoy sex for sex sake vs the ones who are *only* willing to have it when they want a bun in their oven. When such contraceptives are finally available, I’ve a suspicion it will redefine a massive amount of male-female relations. 💊💉🔬

    Liked by 3 people

  41. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Tarn,
    Male contraceprion is a great idea. A man having casual sex is not there to sign up for fatherhood or child support for the next eighteen years. A husband who knows that they are living hand to mouth shouldn’t have to get a third job.
    However, femininists and the feminine imperative do not want this. They want to deny men the veto at any level.

    Liked by 4 people

  42. Tarnished says:

    The future is coming, Fuzzie. It can’t be stopped forever.
    http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/projects/vasalgel/

    Like

  43. Liz says:

    Tarn, you should read that “Brilliance” book series. You and Cill sound like a type of “Brilliant” people described (in the alternate reality sci-fi version of our world where one percent of the people are born “brilliants” with enhanced abilities). 🙂

    I’m still mad at that nanny, Cill. I don’t like people who take advantage of children.
    But I’m glad it didn’t seem to adversely impact you.

    Per birth control, it’s amazing to me that husbands need the permission of their wives to obtain vasectomies. Some day it will be up to a vote by the female public.
    Q: “Should this guy be able to get a vasectomy?”

    A: “How much does he have in his bank account? How much does he make? Oh, that much eh? Nah…he’ll just have to take his chances…”

    But more seriously, with my history of using hormones I’ve always wished they had male contraception (beyond condoms, which suck).

    Liked by 4 people

  44. Tarnished says:

    Can you just imagine? A non-hormonal, 95%+ effective, one-time, reversible injection of gel in a guy’s vas deferens…and no worries about unplanned pregnancies!

    No sudden requests for child support.
    No needing to get another job to afford yet another kid.
    No claims of “he’s the father”.
    No need for a condom except for preventing STDs.
    No wives or girlfriends denying sex excepting when they want a baby.

    Nearly full control of exactly when you want kids. Now that is what I call equality! It’s even good for women who can’t be on hormonal birth control without horrible side effects…no worries for them either.

    It is almost literally a crime that Vasagel isn’t available yet.

    Liked by 3 people

  45. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    I’ll be near a bookstore tomorrow, coincidentally. Thanks for reminding me about that series! 💡

    Liked by 1 person

  46. Tarnished says:

    Per birth control, it’s amazing to me that husbands need the permission of their wives to obtain vasectomies.

    For curiosity’s sake, does anyone know if a woman needs her husband’s permission to get a tubaligation? If she doesn’t, that’s some prime sexist bullshit right there.

    Like

  47. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Tarn,
    Big Pharma isn’t about to touch it. Do they know something?

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Tarnished says:

    Yeah. They know certain politicians and “minority” groups with deep pockets and lots of influence would cease their funding.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Tarnished says:

    “Minority”, because how the heck can 51% of the population realistically be called a minority?

    Like

  50. Liz says:

    Tarn: “For curiosity’s sake, does anyone know if a woman needs her husband’s permission to get a tubaligation? If she doesn’t, that’s some prime sexist bullshit right there.”

    Nope.
    A woman doesn’t even need her husband’s permission to get an abortion.

    Liked by 3 people

  51. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Warning: Tremendously lame Yoda jokes.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. Yoda says:

    Speaks like me he does not.
    Ends his sentences in verbs he does not
    A parsec is a distance, a unit of time it is not.

    So negative I am
    Use “not” too much I do?

    Liked by 2 people

  53. Yoda says:

    swamps are dark, murky, icky, and full of awful surprises. Even the sammiches there are questionable.

    Apply to Mrs. Yoda’s sammiches this does not

    Liked by 3 people

  54. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Yoda,
    Warn you I did that it was lame, no?

    Liked by 1 person

  55. Yoda says:

    Complain about lameness I did not.
    Though lame it was

    Liked by 1 person

  56. Easttexasfatboy says:

    The “Brilliance” series is available on Kindle unlimited. Male contraception. Boy, the mind boggles.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. Easttexasfatboy says:

    Folks, can you feel the change in the air? This time, however, we become aware of things very quickly. Think about the situation in Europe, Germany in particular. German women aren’t having children. Feminism is the reason. However, there’s that whole bad boy rapist thing that dwells in their hearts. I actually saw a picture of a German feminist holding a sign that said “Better rapists than racists”.

    Male contraception will be deemed as viciously anti woman. I’m a real fan of hard scifi. There’s always a black market for prohibited medical technology. I can forsee that it’s deemed to be very anti social behavior…..especially as the white baby birth rate keeps tanking.

    I believe the Rubicon has been crossed. Enough men are aware now of feminist mental problems that they are changing their behaviors. Think about a picture above. That tatted up woman saying her breaststroke are for the baby…..okay…..somewheres in all of that is a failure of due diligence. I’m no saint, not by a long shot. I have a number of large tattoos. I’m into Dragons and Tigers😈🐍. But, real world here……if you’re trying to pass on information to the younger men……well, flee from any woman who has any type of body modification. It’s an outward sign of mental problems. Not PC, oh well…….Women with tattoos are whack in ways that just ain’t compatible with children.

    If that offends feminists, don’t really care. I’ve been around tatts for over 40 years. You see enough, trends become clear. Normal women don’t alter their bodies like that. They have too much self respect. Flip side is this……EVERY woman I’ve known that tatts up is a train wreck. Unstable. It might not be their fault, but there you are. To be fair, I’ve lived a very violent life, so I’m no angel. Most of my tatts were from a very violent point of view. I’ve settled down a lot, but that’s a function of age and a desire for the Bible and God in my life.

    I believe that the feminist mental problem will continue to grow until killed out. That’s always been the historical solution. Read up on the Spanish Civil War. The feminists back then were seriously whack. Various flavors of anarchists and radical marxists. Generally, they were shot out of hand. Sometimes, by their own side. The NKVD grew tired of their complaints. Interesting thing was, the executed were left for the dogs and crows. The Nationalists and Republicans both shot women. Plain fact. It’s going to happen again. You see, women, even feminists, can find themselves in dangerous circumstances, and they can’t keep their mouth shut. Darwinian, right?

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Yoda says:

    EVERY woman I’ve known that tatts up is a train wreck

    Noticed this also I have.
    As if they don’t mind being train wrecks they do

    Like

  59. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Last night, I heard Milo Yianopolis say that in two years women who self identify as feminist in the US has dropped from twenty eight percent to eighteen but, in the UK, it now stands at seven. Can anyone confirm this?
    While they want the bennies, they don’t want to be lumped in with man hating lesbians.

    Like

  60. molly says:

    Fuzzie I read those numbers somewhere too!

    Liked by 2 people

  61. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Yummy , yummy, yummy! Hot Dog in my tummy! 🌯 🌯 🌯 🐻 🙄
    Molly, the fembots in the UK must be horrible to account for being diminished to seven percent.

    Liked by 3 people

  62. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Somrthing much better for Yoda this is.
    Having previewed no lame jokes there are.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. BuenaVista says:

    60 percent of American women self-identify as feminist. 17 percent of men and women identify as “strong feminists”, up from 14% in 1995.

    This is intuitive given the unceasing march in our social, educational, and legal structures to create more cash, prizes and privileges for one sex.

    Source: Washington Post/Kaiser poll of 1600 adult Americans.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/feminism/betty-friedan-to-beyonce-todays-generation-embraces-feminism-on-its-own-terms/2016/01/27/ab480e74-8e19-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?wpisrc=nl_draw

    The explanatory article is a cheerleading exercise for many of the social pathologies we are familiar with in the ‘sphere. Don’t read it if you already have a headache or upset stomach. Schools like Georgetown, which is/was a major Jesuit institution, are pumping uneducated or map-educated useless women into the socio-political apparatus in order to improve all of our lives. Georgetown costs about $70K per year *after tax* — i.e., you have to make about $130K of pre-tax income to send your precious flower there to learn how to declaim on “gender studies”.

    Milo’s a lot of fun, but I gather he was trying to make the point that the ubiquitous femfog spreading, at an accelerating rate, across the land (like Yeats “rough beast” in “The Second Coming”) is fomented by a deranged, demographically insignificant, small cohort of unattractive people. This is not true. Show me a single politician today, for example, who thinks he can win office by identifying the contradictions, absurdities — and social, legal and economic privileges — demanded by feminists. That would be a null set.

    Liked by 5 people

  64. BuenaVista says:

    “… mal-educated …

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Tarnished says:

    Nope.
    A woman doesn’t even need her husband’s permission to get an abortion.

    If a wife doesn’t need permission/co-counseling with her husband prior to an abortion or a tubaligation, then the husband should not need it for a vasectomy. That this is not so = misandry in the reproductive medical field.

    Last night, I heard Milo Yianopolis say that in two years women who self identify as feminist in the US has dropped from twenty eight percent to eighteen

    Unfortunately, it would seem Milo is using old/incorrect data. BV’s link matches what I’ve seen and heard far more.

    Re: Tattoos and Piercings
    I don’t like either one on men or women, nor do I have any. My brother has a poorly done “tribal” tat on his shoulder that he got only last year, and my sisters have 2 well done tats each plus numerous ear and nose piercings. Mom has 3 piercings in each ear. She was constantly after me to get mine done as a child. I told her that I want to die with the same number of holes I was born with. 😆

    The only exception I’d make for tattoos on a potential mate is if it was to be a reminder of a deceased loved one, like the small one a classmate got right above his heart when his identical twin died in a car accident. That, I thought, was a good way of dealing with the grief and keeping the memory of his brother close. I could never begrudge any woman or man something like that.

    Like

  66. Liz says:

    I like tattoos on men. 🙂
    But only after my husband got his. After his 40th birthday. I like them a LOT.
    I think a large tatoo on a woman is hard to pull off after age…25 or so. It looks kind of saucy and edgy on a very young girl, but later it makes her look like a barfly.
    Mike likes tatooes so I got one (before he had any) think I’ve mentioned that before. It’s small, and I let him pick the image and placement. It was a father’s day gift, or somesuch I’ve lost track.
    He wouldn’t want me to be covered in tattooes though, obviously, for the above reason. It’s not a classic look. It’s one of those trends that kind of follow the short-term choices without regard for longterm consequences outlook that is all the rage these days.

    Like

  67. Yoda says:

    Perhaps the issue would be
    “Identify as feminists”
    Vs. “Enjoy the goodies of feminists”.

    Feminists a bad reputation they do have.
    But enjoy affirmative action, scholarships, divorce rape, and other special privileges they do

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Yoda says:

    Also, phrasing of poll’s questions makes a difference it does

    For example,
    “Do you feel that you are a feminist in the mold of Andrea Dworkin?”

    A poor response such a question would receive.

    Like

  69. Farm Boy says:

    They will make it true, even if it isn’t,

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/employers-to-get-new-rules-to-prove-mythical-gender-wage-gap/article/2581856

    The gender wage gap is due mostly to the choices women make in their careers and family lives, not to discrimination. Yet the myth persists that women earn 78 cents to the dollar that men earn for doing the exact same job.

    On Friday, President Obama announced a new regulation that would force employers to “collect summary pay data by gender, race and ethnicity from businesses with 100 or more employees.”

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Liz says:

    “On Friday, President Obama announced a new regulation that would force employers to “collect summary pay data by gender, race and ethnicity from businesses with 100 or more employees.”

    On the bright side, think of the bureaucratic underlayer this could produce!
    More jobs for those 70K per year Georgetown gender studies graduates!
    Maybe the GAO could start a program managing the oversight of the oversight, for additional government job creation.

    Liked by 2 people

  71. Liz says:

    This is nauseating, really disgusting stuff.
    Going for a run now. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Farm Boy says:

    It provides incentives for companies not to grow above 100 employees.
    Perhaps the ideal company worker size is one — the owner

    Liked by 2 people

  73. Farm Boy says:

    The way that the Government punishes companies for having employees make one wonder if the Government really does hate employees

    Liked by 3 people

  74. Liz says:

    It’s pretty clear when you look at the way the government and media handled the burning and looting of black and Asian businesses (as compared to the burning of black activist churches in the same area) that they want to discourage productivity and industriousness.

    Liked by 2 people

  75. Liz says:

    I really like this bunny gravatar image. I’ll leave it up to vote. What do you all think?
    Was the frog helmeted kitten better?

    Liked by 1 person

  76. Tarnished says:

    My vote is for the baby jackalope. 🐇

    Liked by 1 person

  77. Yoda says:

    Nobody ever “likes” a comment with Andrea in it they do

    Liked by 3 people

  78. Tarnished says:

    The way that the Government punishes companies for having employees make one wonder if the Government really does hate employees.

    With how difficult it is for smaller businesses (under 20 employees, like the one I work at) to afford any sort of benefits for their employees…yes. I really do think so.

    We used to have insurance, but the boss couldn’t keep it as of about 5 years ago. So I’m not only without health insurance all this time and have to save up/pay out of pocket for my annual visits, but Obamacarecrap also fucking penalizes me for doing so. I’m just thankful I never get sick or need daily medications…some of my coworkers aren’t as lucky. Hopefully after this election we’ll scrap this stupidity.

    Liked by 3 people

  79. Liz says:

    OT side note, I asked Mike to pick up a temporary phone for one of our sons (to go on a field trip). Apparently people look at you funny when you’re a grown man and ask for a temporary cell phone. Lol! I hadn’t thought of that when I asked him to pick one up…they obviously assumed it was a “throwaway” phone to contact a mistress or something. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  80. Farm Boy says:

    Apparently people look at you funny when you’re a grown man and ask for a temporary cell phone.

    But for a woman, it might be viewed as “empowering”

    Liked by 2 people

  81. Liz says:

    Okay, back to kitten….

    Liked by 2 people

  82. Spawny Get says:

    tickle under the chin…cats love that

    Liked by 3 people

  83. Tarnished says:

    It’s for the best.
    Froggie helmets provide +3 Protection from Stupid.

    Liked by 3 people

  84. BuenaVista says:

    On having a burner phone, or installing a second-phone line on an existing phone (for various reasons):

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2497669,00.asp

    Check the coverage maps before you get too excited; some of the cooler services have poor national coverage and stick to the cities. But something like ReadySim or Burner would enable use of a superseded phone on a temporary basis. Hushed provides extremely secure texting.

    Liked by 1 person

  85. Yoda says:

    A problem this is?

    Here’s one thing that no parent worries about: Who speaks more in Disney princess movies, the boy or girl characters. Yet this topic is the subject of an in-depth research project that has uncovered a trend that’s supposed to disturb us: The males in these otherwise girl-centered movies tend to have more spoken lines than the females. The report details how this wasn’t the case in the old classics, like Snow White and Cinderella, but has become commonplace in many modern movies. The linguists conducting this important research speculate that this princess language gap may send a bad message—yes, an incredibly subtle, perhaps undetectable, message for those not schooled in gender studies. Presumably the message is that women are to be seen and not heard, and must defer to loquacious males.

    The Washington Post article on this study warned ominously, “Researchers have found a major problem with The Little Mermaid and other Disney Movies.” Yet the reporter and even the study’s authors seems to recognize that’s a big exaggeration. Rather, the researchers have unearthed a mildly interesting bit of trivia, which the gender-equity obsessed can claim represents something sinister about our culture and confirms that movies with princesses are bad for little girls.

    http://acculturated.com/disney-princess-panic/

    Like

  86. thedeti says:

    “women tend to see closeness as a requirement for sex.”

    No. Women do NOT need intimacy or an emotional connection before they’ll have sex. Anyone here think your average slut needs any of that when presented with Alpha McGorgeous, Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer or Harley McBadboy?

    Liked by 4 people

  87. Spawny Get says:

    Re Disney
    We as a society need a lot more:
    So what?
    Don’t care.
    You’re a fucking idiot
    STFU

    And a lot less funding for mental inadequates to study worthless pseudo-degrees

    Just an opinion…

    Liked by 2 people

  88. BuenaVista says:

    Yeah, Deti, that was a funny one. All those girls chasing alpha fucks … for the soft-focus, tender romance that is hard-coded into their delicate natures. And all those girls who marry their “security” beta bucks … because he’s their soul mate. HUS approved!

    One of the great ironies of the present situation is that, while people continue to repeat the romance novel view of female sexuality, it’s actually men (those with their eyes open, anyway) who are now the gateway to a relationship. Men with options are confronted with feral female behavior (albeit they may expect the women to turn on a dime and tell them “I’m finally ready and you’re the one!”). But those men tend to believe that prior results are predictive of future performance.

    Liked by 4 people

  89. Spawny Get says:

    I’m not convinced that all women are incapable of ignoring tingles, but it should be clear to all but the blindest that the Disney tale version of female sexuality is bullshit of the highest order.

    Liked by 2 people

  90. Yoda says:

    But those men tend to believe that prior results are predictive of future performance.

    True this often is.
    A correlation between money making ability and intelligence there would be

    Like

  91. Yoda says:

    Snow White made herself useful in the household she did.
    Modern Disney Princesses — Not so much

    Liked by 2 people

  92. Liz says:

    I think you’re thinking of Cinderella, Yoda. 🙂

    Cinderella was one fine and humble ho. 😛

    Liked by 1 person

  93. BuenaVista says:

    Three delicate flowers teaching in a single high school are arrested for “seeking closeness” with their students:

    http://theothermccain.com/2016/01/30/teacher-sex-lesbian-girl-arrest-louisiana/

    Liked by 2 people

  94. Yoda says:

    Agreed
    Cinderella humble and useful also she was.

    Liked by 1 person

  95. Yoda says:

    Modern Disney princesses humble they are?

    Like

  96. thedeti says:

    BV:

    I absolutely LOVE the “hot for teacher” articles; the “teacher had sex with student” articles. Ever since Mary Kay Letourneau burst on the scene, every one of these articles has a photo of the offender. The reason is to titillate men, so that men can evaluate her fuckability. Men look at the photos and say “Fugly” or “I’d do her”.

    Women look at the photos and say “She’s ugly (at least I’m hotter than she is). Can’t believe she’d fuck a student! The PERVERT! (wonder how hot the guy was?)”

    These are the only purposes of these ‘teacher fucking around’ articles – so men can evaluate her fuckability; and women can feel better about themselves because they’re hotter and they’d never do THAT (‘snicker snicker’).

    Same with Debra Lafave. Remember her? Here’s a memory jogger.

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=debra+lafave&FORM=HDRSC2

    Liked by 1 person

  97. Liz says:

    “No. Women do NOT need intimacy or an emotional connection before they’ll have sex. Anyone here think your average slut needs any of that when presented with Alpha McGorgeous, Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer or Harley McBadboy?”

    True.
    But the odds that the “average slut” screwing “alpha mcgorgeous” (or whomever) is mentally imbalanced are very high. I think there’s a relatively linear relationship between women who fuck casually and their level of crazy. And I don’t think that relationship is incidental.

    Liked by 1 person

  98. Yoda says:

    Girls wild they can be,

    In the video, the crybully states: “I’m a five foot girl who weighs a hundred pounds! Yeah, I’m attacking you.” She is incredulous that she can cause damage or that there are consequences to her behavior. She starts throwing scissors out of the car and is shocked when the police show up. She has probably been told all of her life by the culture that she can get away with anything if violence is against the male species. After all, she is just a little girl!

    https://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2016/01/26/what-happens-when-women-do-not-learn-boundaries/

    Liked by 1 person

  99. thedeti says:

    @ Liz:

    “But the odds that the “average slut” screwing “alpha mcgorgeous” (or whomever) is mentally imbalanced are very high. I think there’s a relatively linear relationship between women who fuck casually and their level of crazy. And I don’t think that relationship is incidental.”

    You know, Liz, I might agree with you if it hadn’t been for all that time spent on HUS and elsewhere, where I swear to God, every single woman around confessed to a sportfuck with Fuckbuddy, Harley or Alpha.

    Of all the women I’ve ever known who got sexually active before marriage (which is hundreds), every single one of them confessed a sportfuck romp with Harley/FB/Alpha in their pasts. That includes MY OWN SISTER.

    I’ll agree that some are mentally imbalanced women. But most aren’t – they have just the normal neuroses and anxieties women have. They’re just ordinary soccer moms, ordinary ladies serving donuts and coffee, ordinary backbencher Presbyterians.

    Liked by 1 person

  100. thedeti says:

    By the way, Liz, this exchange with you marks about the 755th time I’ve gone around this mountain with a woman in the manosphere.

    “Women are attracted to hot dudes and will have sex with them easily!”

    “Nah, only the sluts/mentally imbalanced women do!”

    “Uh, no. The mentally imbalanced ones do; the mentally sane ones do; the church ladies do; the “nice girls” do, they all do.”

    Like

  101. Yoda says:

    Masculinity,


    Presidential candidate Marco Rubio recently mocked a Washington Post story that recounted a brief encounter with law enforcement that Rubio had when he was eighteen. Rubio was caught hanging out in a park after hours, a misdemeanor.

    Rubio hit back with a fake ad revealing his other crimes—coloring outside the lines, double-dipping potato chips. The episode was a seemingly small political blip, but it inadvertently points to another problem: We need to stop trying to prevent our boys and men from being boys and men. We need to let them feel passion and lust and adventurousness and act on it. We need to let them get in trouble, drive fast cars, and chase girls. The dark and dangerous part of them—us—that does these things is also the place that can call forth great leadership.

    The Rubio “story” in the Post reveals how our culture has become uncomfortable with male behavior. On one hand there are the liberals who seem to celebrate any kind of sexual expression except heterosexual manhood, which they aim to deride and ultimately destroy. On the right are religious conservatives that grow uncomfortable when a man shows his darker side by having too much to drink or talking about female sexuality

    http://acculturated.com/marco-rubio-masculinity-police/

    Liked by 1 person

  102. Liz says:

    Well, that’s interesting Deti.
    You “might agree with” me “if it hadn’t been for all that time spent on HUS and elsewhere, where every single woman around confessed to a sportfuck with Fuckbuddy, Harley or Alpha.”
    But paradoxically….
    That last post marks the “755th time” you’ve “gone around this mountain with a woman in the manosphere” where they say “only the sluts/ mentally imbalanced women” (fuck casually frivolously).

    HUS must’ve been an interesting place.
    I’m trying to imagine the conversations that would support the above observation.

    Bertha: “I’ve fucked loads of guys! I sport fucked alphas! Then I settled down and I’m a church going soccer mom now. Tee hee.”

    Q: “So, you don’t need intimacy or emotional connection to have sex with someone?”

    Bertha: “Who do you think I am?!? Only sluts and mentally imbalanced women do that!”

    ‘Kay.

    Like

  103. Spawny Get says:

    Ashley, I enjoyed the old conversations on hus. I remember that a couple of the women complained of being thought odd for being virgins. For all the militant ones there were nice ones it was the men wot ruined it.

    Like

  104. Spawny Get says:

    The men wot ruined it first.

    Like

  105. Liz says:

    Are the nice ones still around, spawn? Or are you being satirical?

    As a side note: I DID say it’s a linear relationship. Hypothetical Bertha above would be a smoking loon. This has been my real life observation with slutty behavior.

    Like

  106. thedeti says:

    @ Liz:

    Then…. if I’m to accept what you say, every woman who had sex with a man she was really, really sexually attracted to before getting married is a mentally imbalanced slut.

    I’m not sure that’s the point you were trying to make. It certainly wasn’t mine.

    Let me be plain.

    Women like to have sex with very attractive men. Nearly all women have had sex with at least one very attractive man before getting married. Nearly all women have done so casually, with no expectation of commitment. That doesn’t make them sluts (if they did it once or twice. If they did it 10 times, then they’re sluts.). It also doesn’t make them mentally imbalanced. (If they did it once or twice, they’re probably not mentally imbalanced. If they did it 10 times, they probably have some baggage, some daddy issues… something.)

    So, no, every woman who fucked a really hot guy she didn’t end up marrying is not mentally imbalanced, and isn’t a slut. Some are nuts, and some are sluts. Most probably aren’t. Most of them fucked a hot guy for sport, because they could. LIke I said, I don’t know one woman who got sexually active before marriage who DIDN’T do this.

    Like

  107. poseidon740 says:

    In my experience women are more variable then men in this regard. We men are almost always ready to go as long as we have a day to have rested since the last occurrence. With age men might need about 30 to 180 seconds of physical stimulation first.

    Some women are like men in this regard. Their plumbing gets ready fairly quickly, as long as the woman is not repulsed by her husband. But some women who are not repulsed do actually need a bit more time of physical stimulation.

    Having to buy flowers and chocolates and doing the dishes to get a woman stimulated is pure bullshit.

    Liked by 3 people

  108. Spawny Get says:

    “Are the nice ones still around, spawn? Or are you being satirical?”
    I wasn’t being satirical. I meant what I said.

    The last time I visited was because I followed an opaque url…and ended up there. Really annoying! When I left, I left almost, almost entirely. Don’t think I’ve visited at all in the last two years. Probably only a dozen times since the clear out

    The male core people that I liked set up jfg. Another place that I very much enjoyed. A bit more serious in tone perhaps.

    I’d have loved a mix of the two TBH.

    Liked by 2 people

  109. thedeti says:

    Chicken/egg question for the commentariat:

    Does the crazy make a woman into a slut?

    Or does the slutting make a woman crazy?

    Liked by 1 person

  110. Spawny Get says:

    Poseidon has an avatar? Not bad. It feels like it’s been a while.

    Liked by 1 person

  111. poseidon740 says:

    I mostly lurk. I enjoy the diverse casserole-ishness of the commentary here. I mostly seek out laughs these days. My learning Red Pill was pretty much completed about two years ago.

    Successful blog Spawny. Hat tip to you bro……….

    Liked by 5 people

  112. Spawny Get says:

    Does a crazy woman (real issues) become a feminist if she has a clinical case of acute penis envy, or a slut if she doesnt?

    I’d be tempted to say that crazy causes sex issues which then just spiral in unvirtuous circles of feedback until they can’t get sex anymore (cue Dworkers image)

    Liked by 4 people

  113. Liz says:

    Deti, from my perspective it’s a bit of both.
    The girl is a little messed up for starters. Maybe she was born that way, maybe she had a traumatic experience, or maybe she had a family that had bad values and didn’t care.
    Her behavior (the slutting around, personal justifications for why “I’m empowered!” and so forth) makes her more crazy. I’ve actually noticed this in women. I’ve watched as they’ve become increasingly crazy via this behavior.

    Liked by 4 people

  114. poseidon740 says:

    “Does the crazy make a woman into a slut?

    Or does the slutting make a woman crazy?”

    Both. Its a two way street down the road into depravity.

    Liked by 5 people

  115. Spawny Get says:

    “I enjoy the diverse casserole-ishness of the commentary here. I mostly seek out laughs these days”

    ME TOO

    Knucklebump bro.

    Farm Boy does sterling work supplying much of the material. Apart from my semi rants, I tend to just play in the comments. Like you, I got the pill choked down sometime back, I just like the people.

    Please free to splash around whenever you like. Any other lurkers too.

    Liked by 3 people

  116. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    First things first. Did I see SheWhoWillNotBeNamed upthread?

    Liked by 2 people

  117. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Second,,
    Liz,
    I like the kitten and I am glad you kept her.
    I think that you got married too quickly to undertake a premaital sexual career. So, you weren’t tempted to go down that path.

    Liked by 3 people

  118. thedeti says:

    From my experience, I think it’s the crazy came first.

    With nearly all of the bonafide sluts I’ve known, they had shitty childhoods, were deprived of some emotional or mental need in their childhoods, or had a traumatic experience. With one, it was when her mom got sick with cancer and died when the girl was 21. For most it was when their parents split up.

    I’ve seen daddy issues (a big one), I’ve seen personality disorders (mostly borderline and narcissistic). Most of them have comorbid things like substance abuse. The sluttery was a byproduct or, or a comorbidity with, of all of it — trauma, daddy issues, personality disorders, substance abuse.

    Liked by 2 people

  119. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Deti,
    You need to go back to Buena Vista’s link to the othermcacain. These are all female teacher on female student offenses. What I can’t understand is how the justice system is coming doen on this like a ton of bricks when these same teacher would get a slap on the weist for taking advantage of boys. Given that lesbians or bisexuals make up only five percent of the population, a lot of femalie teacher/ boy student abuse is getting swept under the rug. That female teachers are being prosecuted for abusing female students at all tells me that boys have no value and girls are special snowflakes to be protectedat all costs.
    It’s really maddening when boy victims have to pay child child support to thier teachers.
    That’s the whole purpose for enhanching rape as a crime. Because it produces unwanted shildren.
    I am angry.

    Liked by 2 people

  120. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I really was furious when I wrote my last comment, judging by the typos.
    Granted some boys can have sex with their teachers without psychological repercussions but, a lot of them can’t. It’s aberrant sex. They are not contemporary, nor equal in social status. You can say that it is an abuse of authority. I imagine tha same holds up for girls. It’s sick and it is not at all like a boy having sex with a girlfriend.
    This experience can screw up boys.

    Liked by 1 person

  121. Liz says:

    “I think that you got married too quickly to undertake a premaital sexual career. So, you weren’t tempted to go down that path.”

    You’re probably right, Fuzzie. I don’t want to throw out the NAWALT flag for ridicule, but I truly don’t understand that behavior. The thought of having sex with someone who doesn’t care for me sounds less appealing than drinking vomit.

    Liked by 3 people

  122. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Liz,
    You were spared all that because you found your husband early. What has been brought to light here is a big drawback to postponing marriage, women get to indulge in no strings casual sex and it’s not healthy. That htey indulge in it with men who would never consider them for marriage because they are out of their league is not a great idea either.

    Liked by 2 people

  123. Tarnished says:

    Potential TW

    It is righteous to be angry about such abuses, Fuzzie. Over at Toysoldier’s blog he talks about the harm of teacher-student sex on a nearly weekly basis, mostly female on male rape.

    I used to share some of his posts on my blog. One time, my comments were trashed by men who claimed that no male (minor or adult) could ever be raped by a female, because “males always want sex” and “you can’t rape the willing”. I had to turn moderation back on and delete/severely edit a lot of what was said. It was stomach churning.

    That’s the whole purpose for enhancing rape as a crime. Because it produces unwanted children.

    Well, there is that, but it is also a heinous action because it is the use of someone else’s body as a masturbatory plaything against their will. This goes for male-female, female-female, female-male, and male-male rape equally. 

    End of TW

    Re: Slut chicken/egg
    I think it can be a two way street, but that it is probably more likely in those that had bad childhoods. These people are more likely to seek external validation, many times in the form of sex.

    Liked by 1 person

  124. Tarnished says:

    The thought of having sex with someone who doesn’t care for me sounds less appealing than drinking vomit.

    Agreed, Liz.
    They wouldn’t have to pledge their undying love or anything, but I’d like to know they care about me as an individual, just as I’d care about them. I can’t imagine sharing sex with a man or woman I just met at a bar/club/class/dance/etc, regardless of how attractive they are. I mean, they’re a complete stranger…there’d be no reason for either of us to care.

    Having to buy flowers and chocolates and doing the dishes to get a woman stimulated is pure bullshit.

    Pretty much.
    Come on. Think about it…you’re not gonna find her clit in the sink, after all.

    Some women are like men in this regard. Their plumbing gets ready fairly quickly…

    Yup. Or just ready all the time.

    You know, Liz, I might agree with you if it hadn’t been for all that time spent on HUS and elsewhere, where I swear to God, every single woman around confessed to a sportfuck with Fuckbuddy, Harley or Alpha.

    I’m not entirely sure what a “sportfuck” is. Is it the same as a ONS?

    Liked by 1 person

  125. Farm Boy says:

    There is a new post

    Like

  126. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Tarn,
    The business that Stact McCain pointed out, all this female teacher/female student sex going on that prosecuters are coming down hard on is making me furious. There has to be about nineteen times more boys getting abused here and the teachers are usually getting a slap on the wrist.
    There is only one conclusion to make. A society as heavily gynocentric as ours places little value on men and boys. Men and boys should reciprocate.

    Like

  127. Yoda says:

    Record number of trigger warnings on this tread there are.
    Also long it is.
    A relationship here there I would be?

    Liked by 1 person

  128. BuenaVista says:

    Lizzie:

    “But the odds that the “average slut” screwing “alpha mcgorgeous” (or whomever) is mentally imbalanced are very high. I think there’s a relatively linear relationship between women who fuck casually and their level of crazy. And I don’t think that relationship is incidental.”

    Could be true. But then pediatric shrinks, Harvard MBAs, hedge fund managers, intelligence officers who speak five languages, HR execs for Fortune 50 companies, McKinsey consultants, Morgan Stanley bankers, white shoe firm lawyers, retired at 42 divorcees, movie producers who live next door to Sting, surgeons who are flown to Europe to deliver seminars — shall I continue?

    Sure, it could be true. They’re all crazy, to your premise. But you’re talking about the top of the pyramid now. They’re no different than hairdressers in rural America, or the girl at the convenience store where I pick up my nightly half-pint of BV. Or, you’re mistaken, dear.

    Like

  129. BuenaVista says:

    TL;DR: Liz, date women for 10 years and report back.

    Liked by 1 person

  130. Liz says:

    LOL Point taken BV.

    Liked by 1 person

  131. BuenaVista says:

    Fuzzie, you’re mistaken. One woman-on-girl. Two woman on boy.

    Like

  132. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Buena Vista,
    I don’t think that Liz wants to date for ten years.
    Can you think of anyone who wants to in this SMP?

    Liked by 1 person

  133. BuenaVista says:

    Per Deti, female porn stars are supposedly riven with Daddy issues.

    Perhaps, I wouldn’t know.

    The last shrink I saw, though, delighted in telling me about her Washington area college student girl clients. “They all fuck like rabbits!”

    The takeaway was that she was jealous.

    Liked by 1 person

  134. BuenaVista says:

    Fuzzie, then Liz should leave the pronouncements to people who can cite primary sources. She has boys, she should be learning, not hiding behind the pretty lies.

    This is another thread, but it’s remarkable what happens when a man advises a (sympathetic) woman how to protect her boys. They all say, Haha, that will never happen to MY son.

    Like

  135. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Buena Vista,
    I went back to your comment at 8:30pm and double checked. It was intance after instance of female teacher on female student and I didn’t count the number.
    I have been wrong before but, not this time.
    I am still mad at a justice system that is like white on rice when girls are the victims but pooh poohs it when boys are taken advantage of.

    I wouldn’t pick on Liz. She is very level headed and a good souece for a sane female viewpoint.

    Liked by 2 people

  136. Liz says:

    It’s okay. I wish I could remember the thread that was mentioned, though.
    I don’t recall answering that way to advice on protecting my sons.

    OT thought this was pretty funny so I wanted to share.
    Trump’s children’s book. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  137. Liz says:

    Anyway, the boys thought it was funny. I’d actually buy this book. Maybe he could sell it as a fundraiser. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  138. Tarnished says:

    Sure, it could be true. They’re all crazy, to your premise. But you’re talking about the top of the pyramid now. They’re no different than hairdressers in rural America, or the girl at the convenience store where I pick up my nightly half-pint of BV. Or, you’re mistaken, dear.

    Could it just be that the sheer amount of Crazy-type women means that it becomes extremely difficult to find the ones Liz is talking about?
    Especially since virginity/low N is loudly decried as “prudish” by many young adult women? I can honestly say that, to avoid being mocked by fellow 20-somethings in college, I said I’d had 3-4 partners when my N was actually still 0.

    Liked by 1 person

  139. BuenaVista says:

    The only person in this election who is not a camera-happy charlatan, protean in his/her opinions, is Fiorina. Also, she’s made payroll.

    Like

  140. Liz says:

    What do you think of Kasich?

    Like

  141. Liz says:

    I guess you think he’s a camera happy charlatan. Answered before asked. 🙂
    But I always liked him. I used to watch him when he was a guest on Crossfire. (think it was)

    Liked by 1 person

  142. Cill says:

    “Does the crazy make a woman into a slut?

    Or does the slutting make a woman crazy?”

    The crazy made feminism, and thereby made a woman into a slut. Feminism is the snakewater from which modern day crazies can concoct group-thinks for everyday women.

    I’m thinking of the ultimate sluts, the PPPs of NZ. Some PPPs are congenitally crazy feminist women and some are not, but all of them are “empowered” princess bitches whose immediate group-think is the crew. Each crew has a mental scope so narrow that its ears touch. The mental scope of all crews combined is actually narrower than that of a single crew. In expanding the dumbness of Feminism they are further constricting their mental scope. The crew is the PPPs’ universe.

    When it comes to the ultimate sluts, the crazies who invented Feminism came first.

    Liked by 4 people

  143. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Cill,
    The question should not be so much “how did this come to be?” but, how do we end it?

    Liked by 2 people

  144. BuenaVista says:

    I knew a million guys like Kasich in DC. He, like Trump, does not operate from principle. He’s a guy who disdains constitutional principle for the privileges of relationships and accrued power.

    I’m a policy and principle guy. Not a politics guy. I think the election shapes up as Trump v. Sanders, and neither can think his way out of a paper bag.

    In respect of our SMP discussions, it’s quite remarkable what happens when a libertarian independent sort says to a woman, “I won’t talk politics, but policy interests me.” Leftists are all ears. Everyone is trained to throw talking points at each other. It’s like watching 8 year-olds try to play tackle football.

    Liked by 1 person

  145. poseidon740 says:

    “Pretty much.
    Come on. Think about it…you’re not gonna find her clit in the sink, after all. ”

    Unless tacos were served for dinner, but not eaten. Then when the table was cleared the tacos were not scraped off the plates into the garbage, but placed in the sink. Hypothetically Tarn, a clit could be found within one of the tacos

    Liked by 1 person

  146. Tarnished says:

    “Tacos”, huh?
    It’s probably because it’s 1 in the morning, but I thought this was pretty damn funny.

    Liked by 1 person

  147. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    No tacos would go uneaten in my house. burp!

    Liked by 2 people

  148. Liz says:

    Universal suffrage for the masses!

    Liked by 2 people

  149. Tarnished says:

    No tacos would go uneaten in my house!

    *Tarn prevents themselves from making a comment made purely of innuendos*

    Liked by 2 people

  150. Spawny Get says:

    I had to bite my kebab tongue too.

    Well done us for taking the high road

    Liked by 1 person

  151. Tarnished says:

    Well done us for taking the high road
    It feels weird, don’t it?

    Also, reminds me of a song my guy butchered for his amusement:

    🎵You take the top road,
    And I’ll take the bottom road,
    And we’ll be in bed,
    All mooooorningggg!🎶

    Liked by 2 people

  152. Spawny Get says:

    “It feels weird, don’t it?”

    I feel a little dirty

    Liked by 1 person

  153. Spawny Get says:

    My song is worse.

    I drove my chevy up her levee
    but her levee was dry

    So, you’re happy now? look what you’ve done.

    Liked by 1 person

  154. Yoda says:

    “It’s really hard”

    Get that much I do.
    After 900 years proud I am

    Liked by 2 people

  155. Yoda says:

    I drove my chevy up her levee
    but her levee was dry

    Perhaps a levee it was not.
    Perhaps a dike it was

    Liked by 4 people

  156. Liz says:

    Okay ya all asked for it (Yoda, don’t look):

    Liked by 1 person

  157. Spawny Get says:

    Nicely done, Yodes

    Like

  158. Liz says:

    That Iowa campaign is nearing its CLIMAX, people!!!

    Liked by 2 people

  159. Liz says:

    All while our military fighters are using their deepest penetrator weapons against hidden lairs all over the ME.
    Okay, done now. You’re welcome. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  160. Cill says:

    me: When it comes to the ultimate sluts, the crazies who invented Feminism came first.

    Fuzzy: The question should not be so much “how did this come to be?” but, how do we end it?

    I blame Fuzzy for getting the point, for coming to grips with the thrust of my comment. Fuzzy comes first, and on topic at that.

    Liked by 2 people

  161. Liz says:

    Bad Cill. You made me laugh out loud.
    You folks are so immature! 😉

    Liked by 2 people

  162. Yoda says:

    True it is.
    Fuzzie did beat around the bush not

    Liked by 4 people

  163. Cill says:

    Hey There Vagina
    The only problem in the world is you’re connected to a girl.

    Perhaps a flipside version “Hey There Knee Pads” he should do. Not necessarily connected with a girl it would be.

    Liked by 1 person

  164. Yoda says:

    You folks are so immature!

    Perhaps true this is.
    But premature I am not

    Liked by 2 people

  165. Yoda says:

    Yoda virus spreading it is.
    Be happy you should be.
    Still capable after 900 years I am

    Liked by 2 people

  166. Cill says:

    “Pimpin ma Knee Pads” has a nice ring to it.

    Liked by 1 person

  167. Liz says:

    My ‘like finger’ is getting tired.
    I’ve been using it so vigorously this morning.
    (slapping self now….must stop…)

    Liked by 4 people

  168. Cill says:

    Premature verb at end Yoda does not do, mmmh?

    Liked by 1 person

  169. Cill says:

    My ‘like finger’ is getting tired.
    I’ve been using it so vigorously this morning.

    Stimulating thread this would be, mmmh?

    Liked by 1 person

  170. Spawny Get says:

    IBTFT

    I blame Tarn for this

    Liked by 1 person

  171. Spawny Get says:

    Though Fuzzie provided the foreplay

    Liked by 1 person

  172. Yoda says:

    Patriarch discharge his duty he should.
    A sticky wicket this duty would be.
    Clean up this mess he should

    Like

  173. Tarnished says:

    I blame Tarn for this

    Liked by 2 people

  174. Tarnished says:

    It’s so nice to get some recognition for all the bad behavior I encourage around here!

    Even Yoda indulged himself this time.
    It was quite a shocker…

    Liked by 4 people

  175. Tarnished says:

    Now, the real question is…did Fuzzie really mean to orchestrate all this tomfoolery with his taco comment? 😈
    Or is he an innocent cinnamon roll and we’re all terrible perverts?
    😇

    Liked by 1 person

  176. Spawny Get says:

    Cinnamon roll, that’s why I resisted all night until you started this

    Liked by 1 person

  177. Yoda says:

    Little action on this thread now there is.
    Climaxed it might have?

    Liked by 2 people

  178. Tarnished says:

    Little action on this thread now there is. Climaxed it might have?

    Nah. Just needs more stimulation…
    And maybe a sammich.

    Liked by 1 person

  179. Tarnished says:

    Cinnamon roll, that’s why I resisted all night until you started this

    So in other words, you went all night long? Damn, man. I wish I had your stamina…😈

    I agree though.
    Our dearest Fuzzie is a perfect pastry.
    Too good for this world…and certainly for this post. Lol.

    Like

  180. Spawny Get says:

    and the rest of us are clearly all perverts. maybe Molls gets a pass, or at least has plausible deniability. Except for getting caught (DOH!) with misdemeanors of the refrigerated dairy product flavour. Bad Molly, bad. Getting caught.

    Liked by 2 people

  181. Yoda says:

    Above a big spurt there was.
    Then nothing

    Liked by 2 people

  182. Spawny Get says:

    there was some masculine snoring

    Liked by 2 people

  183. Liz says:

    Everyone is taking a cigarette break. 😛

    Liked by 3 people

  184. poseidon740 says:

    This thread has been carpet bombed with sexual innuendo. The lettuce from the tacos is covering the carpet such that no clit can be found. Maybe, after all, there is utility to shaving off the lettuce.

    Liked by 2 people

  185. Tarnished says:

    Hard for the carpet to match the drapes, when one has polished floors, it is. Preferable to shag though, yes?

    Liked by 3 people

  186. Yoda says:

    Probably nobody respect any of us tomorrow morning they will

    Liked by 3 people

  187. Sumo says:

    That implies that they had any respect for us to begin with….

    Liked by 3 people

  188. Cill says:

    Call the clit to the carpet one should

    Liked by 1 person

  189. Spawny Get says:

    I still think that the last turkey in the shop looks better without plucking. Mine does, anyway.

    Liked by 1 person

  190. Spawny Get says:

    Fuzzie’s one comment triggered more comments than most of my posts

    Liked by 4 people

  191. Wow, how did I miss all that? Too funny! Yoda, I am shocked!!! Shocked I tell you!

    But seriously, re what comes first, the crazy or the slutty, I would say in years past it was probably the crazy, but now that the rules have changed, what was once considered slutty is now so very vanilla. So as the “slutty” bar goes ever higher, more and more women cross over what used to the the boundaries until it comes full circle and it’s considered socially unacceptable to be a virgin anymore, but it’s totally ok to be a raging slut. And (to bring back some old J4G terminology) the alpha mares lead the way in their pursuit of the apex alphas and the rest of the herd follows suit…It’s a race to the bottom!

    Liked by 4 people

  192. Spawny Get says:

    Please stop ‘liking’ my last comment. It just makes the pain worse.

    Liked by 2 people

  193. Sumo says:

    It’s a race to the bottom!

    The bottom is usually the prime target for The Mighty Sumo.

    Liked by 3 people

  194. Liz says:

    “Please stop ‘liking’ my last comment. It just makes the pain worse.”

    Own it, Spawny. Just own that like of shame. 😛

    Liked by 4 people

  195. Tarnished says:

    Fuzzie’s one comment triggered more comments than most of my posts

    Obviously it is because we are all so mature, and not easily led astray by vulgar humor. Right?

    Please stop ‘liking’ my last comment. It just makes the pain worse.

    What’s that?
    Click the like button 3 times?
    Well, seems overdoing it, but if you insist…

    Liked by 2 people

  196. Tarnished says:

    The bottom is usually the prime target for The Mighty Sumo.

    I *still* don’t know if that’s what you call yourself, or what you call your…slightly smaller self.

    I still think that the last turkey in the shop looks better without plucking. Mine does, anyway.

    I think if you’re “plucking” it, you’re doing it wrong, mate. Also might take a long time.

    Call the clit to the carpet one should

    Shouldn’t be a problem.
    Just give it some lip service.

    That implies that they had any respect for us to begin with…

    Awww. I respect everyone here. Especially Sumo, but that might just be a survival instinct.

    Liked by 5 people

  197. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I don’t know how this thread went off on this tangent. I do have to confess to having a one track mind and it’s on FOOD.
    After all, I am a bear.

    Liked by 4 people

  198. Tarnished says:

    I don’t know how this thread went off on this tangent.

    Hi. My name’s Tarn.
    I’m a horrible person.
    Pleased to meet you.

    I do have to confess to having a one track mind and it’s on FOOD.

    Well that’s disappointing.

    Liked by 3 people

  199. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    I do have to confess that when I am full of food, I don’t know what to think.

    Liked by 1 person

  200. poseidon740 says:

    “I don’t know how this thread went off on this tangent. I do have to confess to having a one track mind and it’s on FOOD.
    After all, I am a bear.”

    Tuna is food. Do bears eat tuna?

    Liked by 6 people

  201. Tarnished says:

    Tuna is food. Do bears eat tuna?

    Poseidon. You are evil.
    I love it!

    Liked by 4 people

  202. fuzziewuzziebear says:

    Poseidon, We would if we could. They won’t let us in the stores and I have never used a can opener. But we love salmon!

    Liked by 3 people

  203. Sumo says:

    I *still* don’t know if that’s what you call yourself, or what you call your…slightly smaller self.

    The Mighty Sumo is The Mighty Sumo. The bit you’re referring to doesn’t exactly have a “name”, but if you can command his attention, you can call him whatever you like. 😉

    Liked by 2 people

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