I have read in several places that contempt is the killer of marriages. I had a sense of what contempt was, but was never really satisfied with my understanding. Then I realized what it really was — the total opposite of respect. It should be noted that as the killer of marriages, contempt really only flows one way; from the wife to the husband. It should also be noted that at killing marriages (at least middle class marriages), it appears to be more powerful than hate, jealousy, or anything else.
Why is this? Respect in marriage is a doubly important. The wife must respect the husband, and the husband needs respect from the wife. Jealously, hatred and whatever else do not have this property.
So what has modern society done with respect to respect for husbands? Denigrated them in the eyes women substantially would be part of the answer. The other part is the elevation of women far beyond what they deserve. I will leave it to the commenters to show how this has happened (hint: start with the media).
One wonders how much this campaign has had on divorce rates. Because once again, it leads to contempt, and that to divorce.
Yes, contempt is a big killer of marriage for sure. One has to have the discipline not to “go there” and fixate on what’s wrong (there is always something if one goes looking…not a good strategy, very negative) instead of what’s right. I disagree contempt can only flow one way, I experienced it in my marriage in the final part…constant criticism, put downs, couldn’t do ANYTHING right, and he wasn’t trying to make things better at all. It’s a no-win, destructive, cruel way to treat a spouse. It takes a LOT of maturity to be with someone for life, and as Liz said a short memory. There’s always going to be good and bad, no matter how “good” of a match it is, or even if there’s no good and bad between them, life is always tossing in both good and bad. Don’t ignore the problems, but remember to primarily focus on the good. That’s my advice for a successful marriage.
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Also, I think contempt is sometimes a sign that the person has already checked out, likely has already decided they want to leave, they are just mentally making their case for why you “deserve” it or how they will explain it. They are “making their case” so to speak, or sometimes making things so damn miserable that the spouse who is under contempt gives up and then it’s “their fault.” Not cool.
Gosh, this is a depressing topic. Why is it so hard for people to LOVE each other?
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“Respect in marriage is a doubly important. The wife must respect the husband, and the husband needs respect from the wife.”
Everything that Bloom said above, plus the prerequisite that respect flow both ways. If someone has no respect for their partner, they shouldn’t be in that relationship. Otherwise, this post is right on point.
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“Why is it so hard for people to LOVE each other?”
Maybe some people aren’t taught how? 😕
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“They are “making their case” so to speak, or sometimes making things so damn miserable that the spouse who is under contempt gives up and then it’s “their fault.” Not cool.”
Exactly true. I imagine this dynamic occurs frequently.
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From the book Blink.
” Predicting divorce is pattern recognition. Four important criteria indicating trouble are defensiveness, stonewalling, criticism, and contempt. Contempt is the most important sign that the marriage is in trouble. Contempt is any statement made from a higher level. Often it is an insult. It’s trying to put the other person on a lower plane. Contempt is so powerful it can affect the immune system, increasing the frequency of colds. Disgust and contempt are about completely rejecting someone from the community.”
Yes, contempt is a marriage killer.
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The book went into body language, too. They could predict whether a marriage would end in just a few minutes of observation of the couple. Contemptuous body language like eye rolling was a big ‘tell’.
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Let’s consider how the media portrays guys. In TV shows, and commercials, the husband is usually some type of incompetent buffoon, with the wife knowing exactly the correct thing to do. Typically the guy is a bit “lovable”, but that is small compensation.
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“Maybe some people aren’t taught how? :?”
Yes, sadly this is probably true in many cases, then they just replay their lack into adulthood.
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not taught how means not having been modeled by parents at a young age
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Either not modeled by parents to each other, or not modeled from parent to child, or both. Sucks you can’t pick your family. But people can overcome that, I know many people who had a horrible family who ended up being great spouses and parents…but they consciously made it happen. They were aware of and wanted to learn how to break those early patterns, be and do better.
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“In TV shows, and commercials, the husband is usually some type of incompetent buffoon, with the wife knowing exactly the correct thing to do. Typically the guy is a bit “lovable”, but that is small compensation.”
Yes. Here is an article from 2006 (‘DIssing Men, the new gender war’)
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4907
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Excerpt from the above article:
“Canadian authors, Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young in a controversial 2001 book, Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture reported widespread examples of “laughing at men, looking down on men, blaming men, de-humanising men, and demonising men” in modern mass media. They concluded: “… the worldview of our society has become increasingly both gynocentric (focused on the needs and problems of women) and misandric (focused on the evils and inadequacies of men)”.
The role of mass media in creating and or reflecting identity has long been debated and the findings of some studies have been questioned. Nathanson and Young admitted in their foreword that their findings were based on a small sample. Also, most analysis of media content has focused on movies, TV drama and advertising: mass media genre which are fiction and, therefore, not representative of reality and ostensibly “taken with a grain of salt” by audiences.
However, an extensive content analysis of mass media portrayals of men and male identity undertaken for a PhD completed in 2005 through the University of Western Sydney focusing on news, features, current affairs, talk shows and lifestyle media found that men are widely demonised, marginalised, trivialised and objectified in non-fiction media content that allegedly presents facts, reality and “truth”.
The study involved collection of all editorial content referring to or portraying men from 650 newspaper editions (450 broadsheets and 200 tabloids), 130 magazines, 125 TV news bulletins, 147 TV current affairs programs, 125 talk show episodes, and 108 TV lifestyle program episodes from 20 of the highest circulation and rating newspapers, magazines and TV programs over a six-month period. Media articles were examined using in-depth quantitative and qualitative content analysis methodology.
The research found that, by volume, 69 per cent of mass media reporting and commentary on men was unfavourable compared with just 12 per cent favourable and 19 per cent neutral or balanced. Men were predominately reported or portrayed in mass media as villains, aggressors, perverts and philanderers, with more than 75 per cent of all mass media representations of men and male identities showing men in one of these four ways. More than 80 per cent of media mentions of men, in total, were negative, compared with 18.4 per cent of mentions which showed men in a positive role.”
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The media is so soaked in man bashing that feminists do have an argument denying it. It’s so pervasive that it’s like water to a fish. What may turn it around will be the eventual realization by Madison Avenue that men have their own money.
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tagging…
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Ortiz what was the name of the book regarding contempt and divorce?
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Off topic, really feeling the aloneness tonight, my oldest is sick and needs me, my youngest is being needy and wanting me too, there’s only one me and I am tired. I’d give anything for a back up. Ug. This sucks sometimes, it really does. That’s why when any married moms tell me they wish they were me, free to do whatever, I do my best to let them know exactly how not fun being a single mom (or dad) truly is. People should work their stuff out. Our culture is so screwed up. Rant, rant, rant…sorry, venting…walking away only seems easier. It’s not easier. For anybody.
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Bloom,
I can’t be there immediately. Will this help?
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@ RPC:
1. I hope I didn’t offend you with my impulsive joking around the past few days. I push the envelope a bit too far at times.
2. I only have one child, a 15 year old son, who I have with me half the week. He is wonderfully behaved, but has a disability. He is pretty much my life.
3. I rarely feel alone anymore. I believe it is much less difficult for men than women to not have a lover.
4. I believe it is not only our culture that is screwed up, but the bigger picture is our fallen human nature. All cultures have been screwed up since Adam and Eve ate the apple.
5. I like you very much by what I read from you. If I could I would invite you to a coffee shop and give us the opportunity to become friends and build subsequent trust.
May God bless you……….
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Thanks fuzzie and Poseidon, it helps knowing even when I feel alone, I’m not. At times like this I try to remember to be great full, my oldest has a sinus infection, totally curable, we have health insurance and she has antibiotics, it could be so much worse. I do wish people would love each other, work stuff out, stay together. It’s just too “easy” to bail in our culture, but bailing just creates other problems, I wish people could see that. If you have a partner love them! Cherish them! Don’t treat them w contempt, wish for something else.
Ps Poseidon you have not offended by any means, peace. The joking helps, with all of you! You guys probably know more about my life than some of my closest friends! This is anonymous… Right?
I am smiling and the kids are asleep. Thanks! Tomorrow isa new day.
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Yes why don’t you arrange to get together? Fuzzy or Poseidon, you both show an interest in Bloom, why not act on it? It can’t do any harm. You’re all adults. Just do it.
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Your identity is anonymous to me, but I don’t trust the internet as much as I once did. That is why I now use the Tor browser to frequent blogs. When I first discovered Dalrocks a few years ago I wasn’t using Tor and posted with my own pic and posted way too personally. This is my third ID. But I’ve also been kinda open so I guess some may attach this ID with my initial ID.
With Tor your IP is masked, so the blog owners won’t have your real IP.
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@ Cill:
I would like a real friend. I actually was being serious when I indicated that I would meet her at a coffee shop if I could. I am too much of a loner.
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RPC:
You have my email address from your blog I believe. I never check that email as I only created it for this ID. But I will check it over the next few days just in case you want to communicate further. If you get to know me you will see that all I’ve shared has been honest and real.
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@ cill you are such a matchmaker! Look at you!
@ Poseidon that is very kind of you. I probably should know what masking my IP address means but I don’t. I live in the pacific northwest. Lots of coffe shops!
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Me a matchmaker? I don’t think so!
lol
I *am* a man of action.
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Google IP address and spend a half hour reading. This is elementary internet stuff you outta understand.
I’m in Arizona. Lots of coffee shops here as well. Pacific Northwest is the one corner of the country I have been to yet. I’m from New York. I’ve traveled to Florida many times to visit family. I was once in California when my sister lived there, but only visited once. I don’t like California.
I like the hot, dry weather in Arizona. There is wonderful hiking everywhere in every mountain range. The wildlife in the desert is interesting. I like the very large owls the best. The bugs are not nearly as bad as a humid climate. The people are kinda passive and laid back compared to other places I’ve been.
Let me know when you will arrive. I can meet you at the airport.
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Ps Poseidon your moniker is somewhat new around here so you probably should know I got dumped by my ex fiancé about a month ago after I wouldn’t go along w some of his demands that made me uncomfortable, we dated since last summer, it initially seemed really great but over time not so much, so I am still very much reeling from that. As all these fi e folk know all too well (they were very supportive and I sure appreciate it!) Long story but it is for the best… Better to be alone than to be in something bad.
Ok that’s the full disclaimer.
P.s don’t touch Cill, cause well… La la la
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What part of az? I was born and raised in the land of Cochice… 20 minutes from bisbee, tombstone, the southern border. I know it well. Lived there until I was 19, when i moved back to the pnw where my folks were born and raised and my family ties are.
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Touch Cill; after reading the thread I’m leery to even look at Cill. But I will continue to read Cill’s writings. That continues to be safe.
I did read that your relationship ended, but didn’t know those details. And yes, much better to be alone than trapped in something bad.
I wonder if as we get older it gets harder and harder to gel with another person. I’m so set in my ways, my singular life style.
Perhaps if somebody invented a wife-in-a-jar thingy. Just screw off the cap, add a few drops of water and she pops out all perky and ready to please. Then when I’m sated, just press the button behind her neck and she collapses back into the jar until the next occurrence.
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Vail, Az. Just outside Tucson. I lived in Tucson for many years, then my ex moved from Tucson to Vail. I was glad as the school system is outstanding in Vail. The morning drives were very long, taking my son to school from Tucson to Vail, then to work, on my days with him. So I relocated to a small community outside of Vail, just at the base of a small mountain range. Hence the outstanding wildlife.
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About 20 years ago me and some coworkers would go shooting in Cochise County. I’m trying to remember the name of the tiny town.
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We went shooting outside of Tubac. In Santa Cruz County. The “town” had about five shops, one bar. My friends knew the safe places to pull off the road to shoot. Not Cochise County after all.
Sierra Vista is in Cochise County I believe. Me and my son go to an indoor water park in Sierra Vista a few times each summer. We should meet there…….
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20 years ago, by golly well then we just missed each other!
Arizona is amazing in a completely different way than the pnw. I have not been back in ages.
That said I likely will not get a chance anytime soon. I own a small biz that operates weekends, have kiddos every week. Not much free time for travel, but perhaps someday…
(You flatter me, truly!)
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And cill I am going to like all of your comments from now on, part of the desensitation therapy! Lol. You have been warned!
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Yes sierra vista it was, although it was a small one road town then… I hear its grown quite a bit.
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😀
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@ Cill:
Matchmaking might not be your forte after all.
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Sierra Vista is a big small town now. The military base helped the growth considerably.
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Also I am examining why despite things getting off the healthy track w the fiancé I was still wanting that to work? Maybe hoping for the best or truly at first it did seem pretty ideal, but it has me questioning my judgement. So if I seem standoffish please don’t take it personal. I am still very much asking myself, “wtf Bloom???”
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The base was there back when, that’s where I was born and why we were there. Funny to think its a big town now. Hopefully the development has not ruined it. Maybe I shall visit, never say never!
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Much better to be standoffish than the opposite. Again, a red pill view of our fallen nature would only logically lead one to be standoffish.
I am absolutely terrified of being in a relationship to be open with you. I don’t want to go into details of my past with this, but enough said.
I do know also the wonderfulness of cuddling with a women while sharing a good relationship. Although I would like that again, I am too ambivalent to roll the dice.
MGHAW (man go his ambivalent way)
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Bloom,
This is silly and all for you.
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You guys are awesome, btw (tickles cill, just friend like, M don’t worry!)
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@ fuzzie too funny! That poor cat in the bag, runni g as fast as it could but could not get away! Paper or plastic?
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The dancing parrot got me. I’m guessing his name is Stomp.
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The dancing parrot is at
… at 0:46
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More silliness, this time from Russia.
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Ton: “what was the name of the book regarding contempt and divorce?”
Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell. He also wrote Tipping Point.
It isn’t about divorce in particular, more the psychology behind the way people make decisions.
Wikipedia synopsis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_(book)
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More from the first linked article:
“The new idealised image of men presented in the media during the past three years has been the “metrosexual”, a term reportedly coined by British author Mark Simpson and made popular by New York trend-spotter Marian Salzman, referring to men who are fashion-conscious and well-groomed – often to the point of becoming effeminate such as wearing make-up and waxing to remove body hair.
Recent research has shown “metrosexuals” to be mostly a fabrication of mass media – and not just advertising and TV drama. International current affairs show, 60 Minutes, devoted a major segment to “Metro Man” (August 24, 2003) and Australia’s other top-rating current affairs program, A Current Affair, devoted two programs to metrosexuals (September 19, 2003 and December 2, 2003). Men’s magazine Ralph (October 2003) published a quiz headed “Are you a metrosexual” in a tongue-in-cheek tone. But the underlying message was that, if a man is not a metrosexual, he is a sexist, football-loving, beer-drinking slob.”
That last bit kind of reminds me of some of the false dichotomies I’ve seen around the sphere. Of course, the article is dated and “lumbersexuals”, the new vogue, weren’t around yet. Lumbersexuals are the “urban cowboy” of today…I’m guessing.
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“Lumbersexuals”…hmm…new one on me.
Not so different from metrosexuals after all.
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😀 Swithy.
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“I disagree that contempt can only flow one way…”
I’m curious about this. It could be I’m muddled on the difference between contempt, indifference, or some similar outlook. But while I think contempt can flow both ways, I wonder if marriage-killing contempt can only flow from wife to husband.
“I believe it is much less difficult for men than women to not have a lover.”
Possibly. Or it could be that we have more practice dealing with it.
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CP: “But while I think contempt can flow both ways, I wonder if marriage-killing contempt can only flow from wife to husband.”
I’m of two thoughts on this. First, if the wife is expressing contempt for her husband the ONLY course of action that can save the marriage would be for her to stop showing contempt. This might require contempt in kind. On the flip side, if the wife is not showing contempt for her husband and has self respect, contempt for her is unwarranted, and poisons the marriage. I cannot imagine living with a person who is contemptuous of me.
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“I am absolutely terrified of being in a relationship to be open with you. I don’t want to go into details of my past with this, but enough said.”
I was too, for a very long time.
Every single one of my friends growing up came from a divorced household. My father has been married 4 times, my mother twice (and now divorced again). I had good male and female role models as a child…but none of them were my actual parents. Instead, they were neighbors, teachers (about 1/3 of which were men in my school system), grandmothers and uncles. Both of my male parents (bio and step) were horribly abusive, my stepmothers were stern and often cruel, and until I all out told her what my stepfather was doing my bio mother was the epitome of the “submissive woman”, mostly because my stepfather was making 6 figures a year and she has almost no self-esteem.
To this day, I don’t believe in monogamy, marriage, or family stability. Blood is not thicker than mud in my view, and just because someone is “family” doesn’t mean they aren’t waiting to stab you in the back then lie about it. Friends are far more important to me…they are the family you can choose.
Previous to meeting my FwB (still my only sexual partner) I actually had *no* libido, always wore long pants and sleeves even in 100 degree weather for literal fear of being touched by anyone, and had assumed I was incapable of being truly loved as more than a friend…which didn’t bother me that much.
When I say I’d die for my love…take a bullet, push him out of the way of a car, etc…I’m not just saying pretty, meaningless words. I honestly know he helped give me a new “life” and showed me I wasn’t as irreparable as I’d thought. I trust him, and would do anything to protect him from harm, because that’s what he did for me. Respect and love really should flow both ways, so each person knows they have a confidant/lovemate to stand with them against the world.
A relationship of any kind without these 2 ingredients is, in my experience, as good as a shoreline castle build on a pile of salt and sand. Nice looking, but no foundation to speak of.
/end rant, because work
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Cp my experience is that yes, a man can feel contempt for his mate. I don’t want to go into details but my ex husband seemed terrified of “being whipped” once we were married and seemed to equate that with love. So I suspect it was some misfiring self protection measure. Hard to say only he knows and I am not sure he understands it himself. He’s remarried now, quit drinking, seems happy. I hope he is.
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“Cp my experience is that yes, a man can feel contempt for his mate. I don’t want to go into details but my ex husband seemed terrified of “being whipped” once we were married and seemed to equate that with love.”
My first boyfriend in highschool was like that. He was reflexively condescending and belitting. It reflected badly on him (as it does on everyone), and was a key reason I would never have married him.
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He has been married three times since. I always wondered if he’d learned to hide his contempt better (before the marriage at least). He was 18 then.
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“This might require contempt in kind.”
That sounds plausible. I’m thinking I’m getting hung up on definitions and shades of meaning between contempt, arrogance, indifference, etc.
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My ex husbands parents were very miserably married until they divorced when he was 17. I don’t doubt that had a lot to do w our struggles, not that I was perfect and don’t have regrets. We were married 12 years.
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I may be misunderstanding what contempt means too cp. to me it’s beyond indifference to being rejecting, cold, and not loving, to dispise one’s mate or blame them for all unhappiness. To not respect, almost abusively.
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@ tarn I am sorry that you experienced all that. I suspect my ex fiancé was going to be similar to how my ex husband was, in time. They both started off very loving, love bombing I think it’s called, but after the commitment is made then it turns. I am still trying to understand it, and how to avoid that that sort of thing going forward. I am glad I didn’t marry the ex fiancé but it’s all still obviously pretty fresh. I don’t trust myself right not, my judgement I should say.
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Not your fault, Bloom, but I thank you for the sentiment. 🙂
People will say that the past is the past and to not let it bother you or affect your present life…I think that is foolish. If we don’t recall our past, how would we learn? How would we be able to differentiate between good and bad, sincere and dishonest, loving and apathetic?
Instead, we should remember our past, glean what information we can from it, use it to make better decisions, recognize dangerous people/situations before they harm us, and just live fuller lives. 💙
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@ Tarn:
You said quite a bit. I can identify with much of it. Our human existence can be quite a trust less experience. But you have attained trust in you FwB. I’m happy for you two.
@ RPC:
“I don’t trust myself right not, my judgement I should say.”
I view this as a good thing. You are not being self-delusional. You are realizing the reality of humanity; especially our own limitations regarding our ability to navigate humanity. We cannot read others and the world at large perfectly correctly due to others being so false and also due to our own innate way of fooling ourselves. We all do this at times. I know I have.
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Tarnished is back! Great God in Heaven! But I still won’t frequent this blog very often.
Too “Europeian” for me.
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re: ” It should be noted that as the killer of marriages, contempt really only flows one way; from the wife to the husband.”
Yes. This answers your question “Why is this?” The REASON contempt for a supposedly “loved” mate is so intrinsic to women is that women NEED a built-in psychological reason for rejecting a perfectly acceptable man in order to fulfill the feminine imperative.
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Basically the only possible antidote to Contempt is Dread. Don’t shoot the messenger.
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I *am* a man of action.
Wonder if Moe a man of action he is.
Wonder if Moe a man he is.
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Too “Europeian” for me.
From Europe I am not.
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Jf13,
Umm…the antidote to contempt is using unethical mental games and potential abuse to get your partner to constantly believe you’re about to leave them?
Forgive me if this sounds like a crock of shite.
Yet again why MGTOW is better. At least then you don’t risk sacrificing your morality or stooping to their level.
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“Umm…the antidote to contempt is using unethical mental games and potential abuse to get your partner to constantly believe you’re about to leave them?
Forgive me if this sounds like a crock of shite.”
Regardless of how it sounds, it works. You can argue that it won’t work in all cases, or that there are diminishing returns from over- or misusing it, or even that it shouldn’t work. Nevertheless, it works.
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Verbal contempt is a bitter, scathing abuse with words. It allows nothing positive in the recipient. Over time it drains the recipient of all self image other than the negative. Frequently it is delivered with a twisted, deliberately nausea-inducing humor.
Contempt in action is the physical expression of the bitter, twisted thoughts and the nauseous humor. It can take the form of violence or coercion – equally by either gender from what I’ve seen. Sometimes it is preceded by the verbal type of contempt, sometimes not.
I’m thinking of an example of contempt in action where the husband had no warning at all. The wife, under the influence of new-found feminist fervor, simply started acting out her contempt. She was a hot bitch who seduced half his friends and all his male associates. She was clever, and during a gang bang her first comments were like “Ooo hubby”, when getting a good thrusting, amusing the men. Over the months her gang-banged comments became more and more scathing until they were overtly derisive, and because she did it gradually the men were still amused. Meanwhile the men were continuing to associate with the unwitting husband. All this gave satisfaction to the contemptuous wife, who remained a “loving” wife at home.
I heard about these goings-on before he did.
Contempt is a virulent cancer. Feminism in action is an expression of contempt for men, which can in turn be acted out by women under its toxic influence.
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“Umm…the antidote to contempt is using unethical mental games and potential abuse to get your partner to constantly believe you’re about to leave them?
Forgive me if this sounds like a crock of shite.”
If a person expressed contempt for me, I wouldn’t trust that person, and I’d probably start to have contempt for him or her as well. Even in positions of leadership (the marriage would qualify, in my opinion), good leaders do not have contempt for their subordinates (unless and until their subordinates hold them in contempt…then there are only a couple of options, to bail or put a stop to it via agressive countermeasures).
I reject absolutely any assertion that contempt is an inherent part of marriage.
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“I reject absolutely any assertion that contempt is an inherent part of marriage”
Most disputes turn out to be definitional. My definition is “a bitter, scathing abuse”. I’m guessing CP’s definition is different to mine.
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re: “ex husband seemed terrified of “being whipped” once we were married and seemed to equate that with love”
Yes, but he’s not bad wrong. The typical pattern does seem to be:
1. Man fall in love, treats woman like the wonderment of his life, is p-whipped. He would rather hold her hand and gaze into her eyes (because p-), than anything.
2. Woman eats it up for a little while (honeymoon period), reinforcing his being whipped.
3. Woman changes and grows contemptuous.
Seemingly the ONLY way to circumvent her growing contemptuous is for him never to actually be “in love”, or at least to not act “in love” and instead be able to do some Dread.
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re: “Regardless of how it sounds, it works.”
Yes. Unfortunately. It’s not my fault that treating women poorly is what works.
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re: “I reject absolutely any assertion that contempt is an inherent part of marriage.”
Me too. Contempt is, however, women’s go-to method of demonstrating their mental incapacity to sustain love. Contempt seems to be biologically inherent in *ending* mating.
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“That sounds plausible.”
I was responding here to the idea that a man’s contempt was needed to break his woman out of her contempt for him.
“I’m guessing CP’s definition is different to mine.”
To be clear, my 2:23 comment was in regards to dread, not contempt.
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“Inevitably, contempt leads to more conflict”
http://www.gottmanblog.com/four-horsemen/2014/10/30/the-four-horsemen-contempt?rq=contempt
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Cill: “Most disputes turn out to be definitional. My definition is “a bitter, scathing abuse”. I’m guessing CP’s definition is different to mine.”
I think it’s one of those…you ‘know it when you see it’ type things.
I think it can go either way (case in point, bad leadership) much like passive-aggressiveness, it’s typically a female behavior, but not a female-exclusive behavior.
“Contempt seems to be biologically inherent in *ending* mating.”
I think I do agree with that one.
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In contrast, Dread *decreases* conflict by making the female much more wary of conflict. The relationship improves at the cost of her feelings suffering.
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“You’re not as nice as you used to be. You seem more estranged, less familiar, less like a loving brother. I don’t feel so comfortable with you anymore. I don’t feel I can be myself and express how I really feel, including all the negative stuff. I feel like I have to treat you better than I otherwise would.”
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The fact of media unsuccesfully attempting to invent trends for men, as discussed by Liz, leads to the conclusion of increased probability that the media’s successful attempt to make women more contemptuous of men is a deliberate attack on the family.
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Anonymous Reader and I tracked down the original Gottman reference.
Gottman, J.M., (1991). Predicting the longitudinal course of marriages, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 17 (1), 3-7.
In the original research, the four observed predictors of divorce were
1. Wife showing contempt during conflict with the husband
2. Husband and wife being defensive
3. Wife complaining, husband stonewalling (Demand/withdraw pattern)
4. Wife emotionally detached
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Contempt is one aspect of relationships where men get the long end of the stick compare to women. I’ll copy and paste a comment from elsewhere:
here are Gottman’s “His and Hers” suggestions to remedy the four horsemen in marriages, in the diagnostic included in his big book:
“For Men: Listen nondefensively. Validate your wife, and calm down.
For Women: Complain without criticism or contempt.”
Contempt is the method chosen by women to escalate conflict by making it too difficult for the man to remain calm and nondefensive.
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Thanks darling…. My reading list only grows longer
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A woman’s/ wife’s contempt for a husband/ man stems from her view of him as part of her in group. They do not express contempt to out group/ strange/ dangerous men.
Keep her at arms length and pass those shit tests. Remember the out group vs in group dynamics, never be part of her in group. Ever.
Good subordinates are a God send
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re: “A woman’s/ wife’s contempt for a husband/ man stems from her view of him as part of her in group. They do not express contempt to out group/ strange/ dangerous men.”
True. Too true. Women SHOULD not be this way, but this is the way that women ARE. Almost the only solution that a woman herself can work on, besides stifling it of course, is to be aware that she is a woman just like all other woman in this way in particular.
re: “Keep her at arms length and pass those shit tests. Remember the out group vs in group dynamics, never be part of her in group. Ever.”
I think what works better in getting the woman to act better is for the man to manipulate her by *randomly* hopping in and out of her in and out groups. Push-pull strictly for distancing. NOT by “rewarding” her for good behavior by getting more into her in group, and NOT by “punishing” her for bad behavior by getting more into her out group.
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@ Tarn
Every single one of my friends growing up came from a divorced household.
In elementary, with 30 classmates, 50-odd years ago, I was the only child from a divorced family. Back then, teachers led prayer in school. Churches have become more feminist since then and less orthodox. Might there be a connection among these things?
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@ Bloom
They both started off very loving, love bombing I think it’s called, but after the commitment is made then it turns. I am still trying to understand it, and how to avoid that that sort of thing going forward. I am glad I didn’t marry the ex fiancé but it’s all still obviously pretty fresh. I don’t trust myself right not, my judgement I should say.
Therein lies wisdom–suspect one’s judgment. Bloom, you seem especially susceptible to emotional appeals and somewhat allergic to constructive criticism. I hope you will take this as an observation from a friend.
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Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying contempt from women in marriage does not exist, I see it far too often and try to advise such women to change their mindset. I blows me away, what I have heard women say to and/or about their husbands. One such example, a two income, no kids couple I have known for many years, despite the fact that they both make LOTS of money (and spent every dime of it plus some on travel, fine dining, and ridiculously priced designer clothing). I was visiting them in New York City, where they lived at the time, and I was flat out appalled at how one day she absolutely berated him, flat out saying that HE needed to earn more money, etc. This was shortly after my divorce, and I could not believe she would talk to this man who loved her so much and treated her so well that way. At the time he wanted more than anything to start a family but she refused, bc of her career. There I was a single mom who would have given ANYTHING for a husband like that, he truly is an amazing person, and she acted just like a spoiled brat (and likely continues to this day to.) But then again, when they were dating she was very much the princess, he lapped it right up, catering to her every whim. I remember visiting them maybe two years after the marriage, they were living in San Francisco at the time, and I could tell then the princess act was wearing thin. They are still married yet, gosh must be 15+ years now, maybe close to 20. They just finished several rounds of unsuccessful in vitro. It does not look like they will have children. And maybe that’s a good thing. I can’t believe he stays but he does, and she is damn lucky bc if I were him, I wouldn’t be able to take that.
Maybe that’s why the manosphere resonates with me, I seem to have the bad luck to be experiencing the female version of what many men her describe as the relationship dynamic. I never have nor would I even be able to act the entitled princess, if anything I am too self sacrificing for my own good. When I see women do it, I can’t believe men put up with it. But I have seen more than once women act such and men being drawn to it like a moth to a flame. I don’t get it. I have contemplated trying to fake that (maybe a female version of dread?) but I just can’t do it. I agree with Tarn, it shouldn’t have to take a bunch of mind games. However, I also admit that sometimes it probably does. Must be miserable, when that is so. 😦
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@ Tarn
Umm…the antidote to contempt is using unethical mental games and potential abuse to get your partner to constantly believe you’re about to leave them?
You haven’t proved any of your assertions about Dread, which are absurd on the face of them. Sounds like feminine shaming tactics.
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re: “I have contemplated trying to fake that (maybe a female version of dread?)”
Women DO NOT work the same as men work. Dread works on women in improving relationships. Dread DOES NOT work on men in improving relationships.
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The best antidote to contempt is to shrug it off with agree and amplify.
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I agree adsgamer, I realize the advice is given as a friend. I am very much self reflecting and questioning everything.
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re; “if I were him, I wouldn’t be able to take that.”
Correct. Beta males are much much more capable than females in this way.
re: “I can’t believe men put up with it.”
Women erroneously believe males choose to be treated as betas.
re: “men being drawn to it like a moth”
Nope, it’s highly unattractive. But betas are made to feel like they *have* to put up with it.
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What is unethical about men having options? What is abusive about men having options? Consider that women always have options for sex almost immediately.
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re: “The best antidote to contempt is to shrug it off with agree and amplify.”
And Gottman agrees. Since his original publication clearly blaming women, Gottman has really turned on men for not reacting “properly” to contempt from women.
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re: “What is unethical about men having options? What is abusive about men having options?”
What is potentially quite unethical and abusive is that the woman has to SEE the man having options, to be effective. So if he has to *make* her see it, there could be concerns.
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A woman’s in-group women friends really aren’t “allowed” to have out-group friends that are women, either. If so, then those friends become out-group (or more out-group) to that woman. But it’s not clear in my experience that if she knows her man merely has some out-group women friends then that’s enough for Dread.
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jf13, I would agree men should not tolerate contempt from women. And maybe betas have been conditioned to think they HAVE to accept it, but I really have seen many times guys who are really great people who should not put up with such fall head over heels for the princess act. So much so I just stand there flabbergasted, thinking, “Are you KIDDING me???”
By female dread I meant maybe I need to act more the princess, but like I said it seems like mind games to me. Plus, I would not like myself if I acted like that, when I see women acting like that it makes me feel sick it’s so…unethical and selfish.
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I bet any of the women on this site could get laid in 30 min. by strange anytime they wanted. Probably not by SMV 9-10 men, but surely by 7-8’s.
Back when Mrs. Gamer and I were engaged, we had a big fight wherein she showed contempt and I showed her that I could be getting friendly with strange in her apt. within 30 min. That effect lasted about 30 years.
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I’ll try a Jedi mind trick. Envision the wave of a hand. “You can’t act like a princess if you’re not born to it.”
Funny enough, the same mind trick works well on betas. “You can’t act like an alpha if you’re not born to it.”
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@ jf13
What is potentially quite unethical and abusive is that the woman has to SEE the man having options, to be effective. So if he has to *make* her see it, there could be concerns.
Making her see it doesn’t work. Only if she imagines or discovers it by investing her own effort does it work.
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Since his original publication clearly blaming women, Gottman has really turned on men for not reacting “properly” to contempt from women.
I’d google this myself, but I need more info.
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Whatever I am doing is not working either so…who knows? I am pretty self contained and self sufficient, I have been told that it makes men feel “unneeded.” I dunno, maybe there is something to the helpless girl/princess/I can’t do it you do it act? I don’t know, obviously…
The same gal I mention above, we went on a trip and her husband had to go back to work so we spent the next few days alone and she just put me in his place. She wouldn’t take a turn driving, we were touring Napa/Sonoma — no that’s ok, she said, I haven’t driven in years…. I said, well don’t you want to practice??? I can’t imagine being so dependent. She just looked at me helplessly. Or her cell phone was dead, so she whined to me, Gosh I wish my cell phone was charged…. I just looked at her dumbfounded and said, well charge it then! She seriously expected ME to do it for her. No way, sista! Charge it yourself!)
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jf13 thanks for the Jedi mind trick, I will try it. Now send me some money, take out the trash, and fetch me some tea. I need to relax! 😉
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@ RPC:
I’m curious what kind of home business you run?
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And maybe jf13, MAYBE, if you are lucky you can give me a foot rub!
Is that working for ya?
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Posideon I would be more specific but it might give me away, so let’s say it is a small agritourism based biz. I started the biz 4 years ago. That isn’t what pays my bills though, I am a freelance writer and have made my living as a writer/editor.newspaper reporter for over 20 years. I still do that, freelance write mostly on the topic of health and medicine, “during the week.”
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re: “I need more info.”
Gottman now says that the real problem with contempt by women is men reacting to it, by first becoming defensive as if the contempt were a reality-basedattack in order to prove to the woman that she should not be contemptuous i.e. that she should cease attacking. And then when that fails, like it always will, Gottman claims that men’s fall-back defense of stonewalling enrages the woman into escalating contempt i.e. that his defense against her attacks is what makes her attack,
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Despite my numerous typos displayed here, I am in casual mode, and type very fast. For work of course, I proofread and edit 😉
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“agritourism”
sounds like it could be an agricultural marijuana growing farm
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Men choose to be treated like betas. They don’t walk, they don’t say fuck you bitch they don’t break out their pimp hands. Those are all choices.
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jf13 I can see that, so you are saying men should push back rather than stonewall? Or? What is the solution?
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lol Poisendon, no, no not that!
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In other words, Gottman implicitly acknowledges that no matter what the man does, the woman is going to engage in behaviors specifically to attempt to drive the man away. Gottman claims that just accepting that that’s how women are is key to the man behaving properly: don’t take her attempts seriously, “let” her attempt but don’t “let” her succeed.
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That is supposedly legal in my state but pretty much every county including mine has passed moratoriums against legal grow operations. People are doing it, but not “legally.”
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re: “Men choose to be treated like betas.”
Only because the whole system, biology, culture, all of it, is designed specifically to make betas feels like they have no real choice.
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Ah I see jf13, that makes sense. So blow off her attempts to push you away, kind of the bemused mastery or whatever they call that?
p.s. I am WAITING (stomps foot!)
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re: “you are saying men should push back”
I would rather say that women are at fault and should cease attacking. It is Gottman, and all woman-promoting marriage counselors, who are saying that men should embrace conflict because conflict makes women happy.
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re: “So blow off her attempts to push you away, kind of the bemused mastery or whatever they call that?”
Yes. I would argue that that’s what men thought they were doing when they were stonewalling, but evidently it doesn’t work.
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And while jf13 is hurriedly running to fetch tea for Bloom, massage her feet, etc., Bloom is laughing about it with me as she washes my feet with her hair.
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@ jf 13 yes I would agree, women should curb their nonsense. And in the past they did, because the princess act was not endorsed like it is today.
(Flounces off, slams door, fine I guess I will have to get my OWN tea!) 😉
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“men should push back rather than stonewall?”
Men should get on top of it soon as it raises its ugly head. Even sooner than that. Men should be uncompromising against contempt. It’s not a matter of “don’t let it grow”. It’s a matter of “don’t let it start”. Don’t sit around hoping it’ll go away. Act now, and be ruthless about it.
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Sorry adsgamer, I just can’t…
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And I actually do have to take out the trash, after cleaning up after the darn dog who has discovered if she rams into it like a linebacker she can eat to her heart’s content. I left the pantry door open when taking the kiddos to school, oops.
jf 13, wanna help? 😉 I’ll rub YOUR feet!
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I mean really, what’s so wrong with mutual foot rubs? Why does it have to be one way or the other?
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Liz “I reject absolutely any assertion that contempt is an inherent part of marriage.”
So do I. It is a prevalent part of marriage, though, as you will agree. Look I put words in your mouth 😀
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“what’s so wrong with mutual foot rubs?”
Just don’t do it to me. You *know* why 😈
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And it’s a good thing I went to take out the trash as one of the new chicks had somehow managed to get out of the coop and was running around it peeping it’s head off. Good thing the cat didn’t find it first! I captured it and safely returned it to momma hen. My good deed for the day is done. (Yay, karma points!)
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Lol Cill, I liked and unliked your comment three times! Enjoy!
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“My good deed for the day is done”
Not yet it ain’t. You still have to Like on me right here.
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And Yoda not sure what you mean but I do suppose this is the Internet, Cill if you are not a man, I retract the foot rub and tickling, sorry! No offense, but I just don’t swing that way 🙂
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I am definitely a man, and I have no need for makeup or $2000 eyelashes.
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Now go on, get Cill, pffffft scat, enough likes for you for today! Lol. M might start hunting me down if I keep liking on ya. 😉
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Bloom I’m happy to report, your desensitization program seems to be working… online ***
The burning question is, is it working IRL?
*** NOTE: there’s no room for complacency, there’s a long way to go yet!
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@ Bloom
Sorry adsgamer, I just can’t…
It’s all virtual, bro.
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“It’s all virtual, bro”
That may be so, asd, but would you wash Moe’s hair with your feet? Just sayin’.
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@ Cill
Contact me on my blog.
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“Sounds like feminine shaming tactics.”
Nothing I’ve said is a “shaming tactic”. That’s not a catch-all term for anything you disagree with. Of course I want men to have options. I want them to have just as many options as our society provides women with. Men as a whole deserve DV protection services, equal rights in divorce/family court, more funding for suicide prevention…the list goes on. Men need all of these things, and I’d be willing to help get the ball rolling and discussions started about actually *doing* something about inequality rather than sitting around flapping our lips about it. But everyone here already knows that, or at least they should because I’ve said it often enough.
“Regardless of how it sounds, it works. You can argue that it won’t work in all cases, or that there are diminishing returns from over- or misusing it, or even that it shouldn’t work. Nevertheless, it works.”
I never said that using Dread to control one’s spouse doesn’t work. It does. I’ve seen it, and had a modified form of it used on me by my father and stepfather for most of my childhood. Just because something works, doesn’t mean it is ethical to use. This overtly Machiavellian approach to relationship troubles is wrong. If you want to say that’s only my opinion…fine. It’s my opinion, and is a direct reflection of how I treat others and myself in daily life. The ends do NOT always justify the means.
I want there to be legal equality between the sexes so that instead of using Dread on a contemptuous spouse a man can simply leave. So that a man can recognize a toxic relationship for what it is, and get the same exact help a female peer would receive in getting himself and his kids AWAY from that environment. So that he doesn’t have to debase himself into playing shitty mind games or potentially take it too far and become just as abusive as the woman he’s living with. So no man anywhere has to sacrifice his morality to keep on top of a person that he really should just get the fuck away from as fast as he can.
Nobody deserves an abusive relationship.
Nobody should be told “oh, if you just make your woman mentally/physically suffer *a little bit* she’ll “behave” exactly as you want her to”.
Likewise, nobody should be told “if you want your man to do as you say, just give him *a little bit* of sex or affection.
If one has to resort to such manipulations in order to survive living in a relationship, then it’s not worth saving especially in cases like what Bloom spoke of with no kids. Gods above, what is with men and women refusing to leave a wretched situation?!
I am confident that I’ll be given a list of reasons why it’s actually not unethical to use Dread on your wife, just like I’ve been told at feminist bloggers that it’s not unethical to consistently deny your husband sex. Doesn’t matter to me. My beliefs on this topic will not change, because I do not agree that one has to fight fire with fire…one just has to get the hell out of the burning building and find a new place to live that isn’t full of faulty wiring.
I’m at work for the rest of the day, so I hope everyone has a nice one.
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@ Tarn
Now you’re dodging. How very feminine of you. Deal with the sexual options issue that I raised or concede my point.
Women always have Dread going because…biology. You can’t fight biology with your equalitarian mumbo-jumbo.
You also assume that women have a right to commitment. Because without commitment, Dread is a non-issue. Women have this right because…?
Hope your day at work went well.
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@ Tarn
So that he doesn’t have to debase himself into playing shitty mind games or potentially take it too far and become just as abusive as the woman he’s living with.
Ah, you are projecting your history onto Dread. I’m starting to understand your subcomms.
When I speak of Dread, I am speaking about being out among women…perhaps at work…perhaps at a club…perhaps in the supermarket. Soft Dread. If a woman wants to inquire about my activities, then she opens herself up to harder Dread. Her choice, which she well understands.
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“I want there to be legal equality between the sexes so that instead of using Dread on a contemptuous spouse a man can simply leave.”
Yup. There would be a lot less contempt from her if she knew he could do just that.
You have a habit of doing this, Tarn. Cutting to the chase, I mean.
You deserve my good wishes after that: You have a good day too now, me mate, y’hear ?
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re: “Act now, and be ruthless about it.”
Which is Dread. I should cavil about about Dread definitions. Certainly a part of Dread is making the woman fear and therefore respect the man’s overt ability to replace her. But the key aspect of Dread is her perception of his ability to be ruthless when she doesn’t want him to be ruthless.
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OFFS
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re: “I am confident that I’ll be given a list of reasons why it’s actually not unethical to use Dread on your wife”
Not from me; treating a person poorly is always wrong. But SINCE women are not ACTING like persons in being so insane/irrational/subhuman as to react wrongly to being treated well, there is a bit of wiggle room here. Not least of which is “treat a person like thye want to be treated which they reveal by how they treat you.” I could wedge that ethical crack wide open and drive of truckload of Dread through it if you really want.
re: “Nobody should be told “oh, if you just make your woman mentally/physically suffer *a little bit* she’ll “behave” exactly as you want her to”.”
It is for this reason I haven’t evangelized the red pill. It would be instantly misconstrued as evil. btw 99% of the red pil is summarized in this observation: “women do not react properly to being treated well”.
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Oh, to be young again. Funny how the young never-married have solutions to the problems of the old married folks.
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Spawny 8:21 pm – one of the best yet.
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@ jf13
Let me be cavalier about your use of “cavil”, which I find vaguely humorous in its application to the vagueness of Dread.
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“Now you’re dodging.”
It’s called using a cell phone to scroll/respond and only having 10 minutes left it my lunch break, actually. I suppose your term works as well, if you want to make the other person look bad.
“Deal with the sexual options issue that I raised or concede my point.”
I will do neither.
“You can’t fight biology with your equalitarian mumbo-jumbo.”
Didn’t realize that being an asshole is biological.
My bad.
“You also assume that women have a right to commitment.”
Hahahahahahaha! Yeah, right…Anyone who’s read my blog knows what a steaming pile that is. NOBODY has a “right” to commitment. Pull the other one, it has bells.
“Ah, you are projecting your history onto Dread. I’m starting to understand your subcomms.”
I’ve no clue what a subcomm is.
And of course I’m using my personal history of seeing and dealing with Dread manipulative techniques. Duh…It’s not like the entire manosphere isn’t also full of people who use their own experiences to find common threads and situations. If this wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t have MGTOW who recognize that being with shitty women is a bad plan and that it’s very hard to tell the good ones from said shitty ones. Thankfully, I know NAMALT and NAWALT are true.
Okay, now I’m 2 minutes over for my break. Good day, everyone. And thank you for understanding, Cill. 🙂
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Simultaneous mutual foot rubs are the way to go, and are not more difficult than sitting in each other’s lap. The problems with doing mutuality by accounting are that
1. Keeping accounts is wrong
2. The books always get cooked, and the giver gives and the taker takes
3. Women will say “my feet simply need more rubbing”
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@ jf13
99% of the red pil is summarized in this observation: “women do not react properly to being treated well”.
Interpre-test-ation: “properly” means “like a man would react”; “well” means “like a man would want to be treated”
Because women believe that high value men don’t treat women well because those men don’t need to treat women well to get sex. Hence, if a man treats a woman well, then she could do better, because Hypergamy. And women are ultra-hypergamous because of Pedestalization, which has raised the status of women as a class 1-2 pts. above the status of men as a class. Pedestalization has come about because of the Feminine Imperative’s long-running implementation of laws to benefit women and its similarly long-running plan to undermine the status of men as a class.
Does this about sum it up?
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@ Tarn
Probably need to start this convo over. Most of my previous comments assumed that we were using common definitions for “Dread”. We aren’t. I am using the standard manosphere definition and you are using something else.
I’ve no clue what a subcomm is.
Sub-communication. Often a tone, gesture, facial expression. Can also be unexpressed logical assumptions. “Just get it” implies a whole passel of these assumptions about how a man needs to behave towards women in order to be sexually attractive/active.
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re: “actually *doing* something about inequality”
For starters, what we are talking about is the apparently *biological* impulse of women to become contemptuous in behavior towards the men they claim to love. I say the reason for this contempt is to drive the man away sexually. After the honeymoon period she no longer wants as much sex, and her *biology* forces her mind to think it’s because of her man.
All the laws and all the education in the world cannot pry a woman away from her feelz.
There are methods to equality by equalizing libido: chemicals etc.
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re: “Interpre-test-ation: “properly” means “like a man would react”; “well” means “like a man would want to be treated””
Amen. Just like a real person.
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The grand thing is that we all agree: MGTOW or Dread. I have conceded that MGTOW is strangely inescapable logically. Would like to see the same concession for Dread.
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@ Tarn
Re: women have a right to commitment
Hahahahahahaha! Yeah, right…Anyone who’s read my blog knows what a steaming pile that is.
But arguing the contrary point doesn’t necessarily mean that you haven’t somehow left some follow-on implications of the point standing in your thinking. I think that I showed that with my analysis of Dread and the expectation of women having a right to a man’s commitment. Without assuming that women having a right to a man’s commitment, Dread would have no power.
“Deal with the sexual options issue that I raised or concede my point.”
I will do neither.
Hence my accusation that you are dodging. Point. Set. Match.
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Spawny 8:21 pm
I’m picturing the Rugby Ref ordering off Justin Harrison after Harrison’s bum-biting spree. The OFFS was exactly the expression on that Ref’s face.
lol
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theasdgamer sums It up . All of It.
“Because women believe that high value men don’t treat women well because those men don’t need to treat women well to get sex. Hence, if a man treats a woman well, then she could do better, because Hypergamy. And women are ultra-hypergamous because of Pedestalization, which has raised the status of women as a class 1-2 pts. above the status of men as a class. Pedestalization has come about because of the Feminine Imperative’s long-running implementation of laws to benefit women and its similarly long-running plan to undermine the status of men as a class.”
Keep in mind he is talking about intrinsic gender behavior. If you can’t concede hypergamy when talking to redpill men, you may as well not talk just listen.
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I actually haven’t taken Dread seriously as a DHV before now, so thanks to tasdg for clarifying why that’s so. And for the inevitable woman’s whine: “If you really were higher value then you wouldn’t need to DHV, you … you … lesser man you.” I reply a priori: “I’m glad you acknowledge knowing I’m right.”
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I think we’ve bandied about or at least danced around this question: To what extent does MGTOW work as a DHV to forestall contempt?
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Is the option to MGTOW merely a piece of Dread?
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To what extent is MGTOW a consequence of merely not wanting to do Dread?
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Does anyone actually expect the wholesale abandonment of contemptuous women?
Does anyone actually expect the wholesale abandonment of contemptuous women would work in getting women to be less contemptuous?
Does anyone actually expect the wholesale abandonment of mad dogs to make them less mad?
Does anyone actually expect the wholesale abandonment of mad dogs to make them less likely to bite the next man that happens upon them?
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Amen. Just like a real person.
If women are biologically incapable (with rare exceptions) of behaving like a real person (i.e., a man), then it would follow that expecting women to behave like real persons is irrational and that their rights ought to be abridged and laws should be written taking into account the biological realities.
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“To what extent does MGTOW work as a DHV to forestall contempt?”
Based on personal experience, MGTOW does forestall contempt. Whether it’s because it’s a DHV, I couldn’t say.
“Is the option to MGTOW merely a piece of dread?”
Again from personal experience, the option isn’t, but the (partial) implementation can be. I don’t think it has to be, though, depending on specifics of how you go about it.
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re: “their rights ought to be abridged and laws should be written taking into account the biological realities”
This would make an excellent plot for a science fiction story, barely entered by the Matrix notion of the red pill. Suppose injecting a humanoid with a substance made it into a person; suppose all the world were blind, or asleep, or animal-levels of consciousness and injecting them made them see, awaken, or become human-level; suppose humans become superhuman when injected.
What is the moral responsibility for a person to see to it that the maximum number of nonhumans become humans, or humans become superhuman?
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Let the MGTOW reject the harpy women. Let the harpies be left with those that treat them as harpies, and the manginas and other assorted wimps. May they find each other’s company eminently salubrious. When the wailing commences I shall laugh my arse off. Bitchy entitled women don’t have any luck getting anything out of me beyond a IDGAS smirk. A decent woman might get to exchange favours in a civil manner. MGTOW for the chilled out win, baby. JF was correct in that I am not interested in managing a wimminz via dread. That’s a major part of why MGTOW was a natural choice for me.
And anyone finding Tarn to be any kind of typical woman, you’re off your fucking rocker – read her blog. And while we’re at it; none of the ‘actual’ women here act anything LT around here (nor anywhere else, I would wager). I’m not interested in running a blog composed entirely of angry men.
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@ Spawny
JF was correct in that I am not interested in managing a wimminz via dread.
Where is the effort at management? Just being out with women and spinning plates provides dread. Unless you are a hermit….
I expect that you flirt with women when you are among them. You are automatically running dread, whether you know it or not.
When I was chatting up a woman last Sat. night, she wondered what I was planning later. I told her I was going dancing at another club. She later put a special tone on “dancing” when she remarked about my later activities. Women automatically assume that a high-value man is spinning plates if he’s out among women without the one he is currently with. Dread is automatic and is done by the woman to herself.
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@ JF13
You were likely thinking of this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062794/
Make the protagonist a woman who becomes a man in desire and rational thought/emotions, though a woman as regards genitalia. Tarn and Tarn alike?
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@ Spawney
Are you pedestalizing Tarn? Is her thinking so rational that she has no Blue Pill to eradicate from her thinking? I know that I am continually working on eradicating the Blue Pill from my thinking myself.
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Tarn, this comment is for you, and how I relate to you on the net. It’s a statement of my personal experience, and I’m not attempting to speak for anyone else.
If I take you at face value, I see someone who has gone in batting for men. I see a courageous battler for us. Approaching you in that way, I’m more likely to take you at face value, and give you the benefit of the doubt.
It’s all just a matter of predisposition: am I going to treat you first up as the opposition, or as someone who’s already well and truly proven to be on my side? I think I’m right in saying I came close to crossing swords with you only once, then I read you again, went back a bit, and it all made sense. I learned fast, which was not hard to do as you express yourself clearly.
Your face value accords with my own values re women vs men. If I were to ignore your face value I’d start dragging you into the realms of semantics, where you should only have to explain yourself once before being justified in ignoring me thereafter.
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Just a side note…
Some of the body language/expressions of contempt like eyerolling can become a part of habit. Since I’m a big believer in doing equals thinking as well as thinking equals doing, a bad habit like that can lead to negative energy/contemptuousness. I was an eyeroller at one time. I didn’t do it A LOT, but no one should do this as a habit at all. For me it was a reflexive habit and I didn’t notice I was doing it. I had to consciously stop the bad habit and catch myself before doing it.
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re: mutual lap sitting
Off topic reminiscing. In the very beginning of 1st grade I did a first-day mutual stroking close with Ana, an India-American (as distinct from Amer-Indian) with tantalizingly silky black hair. I had been straitly forbidden from letting any of the girls kiss me “You don’t even know them!”, and my mother had also warned the teacher to try to keep the girls away from me. The warning didn’t work. At all.
Ana was seated in front of me on the floor while the teacher teached at us, and I told her I just had to feel her hair. Whatever the teacher was teaching kinda disappeared.
She turned around and told me she wanted to do me like her mom did to her dad (ah, youth), and I was game for it. So she sat down in my lap, our legs kind of jumbled comfortably, and gazed into my eyes as she ran her fingers sensually on my crewcut scalp. As thrilling as that was, it got better when she clutched and pulled and her eyes rolled back in her head while I did her scalp. Suffice to say our mouths lolled open and we were panting heavily. Since we had not yet afforded glasses for my ultranearsightedness and our noses were practically touching, I could vividly see when her eyes teared up from it feeling so good.
Naturally there was some fallout. Ana’s mom told the teacher not to let any of the boys mess with Ana’s hair. So after that, our mutual lap-sitting sessions concentrated on the area between the skull and the neckline i.e. the neck. Yes, at recesses and lunches and several other times during each day we stroked each other’s neck with rolled-back eyes. We called it necking, and thought we had invented necking. The other girls were insanely jealous of Ana.
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Why should a man need to walk away from a woman? This question, I think, gets at a hidden assumption as regards commitment. Why can’t a man simply spin plates?
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@ Liz
Since I’m a big believer in doing equals thinking as well as thinking equals doing
and the corollary, “Talk is cheap.” Enthymeme: Women rely heavily on misdirection/deception. Which is why PUAs say to believe what a woman does, not what a woman says.
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I have never seen any evidence that Tarn is not exactly as ‘she’ describes; mentally male. I’m not pedestalising anybody.
Read Tarn’s comments as if written by a youngish, nice, very fair minded bloke who (while having had a very shitty upbringing) hasn’t had the usual problems that males have with women while growing up (she’s had a different set instead – which can give you great insight into the world of women). That way you might actually stop straw manning the fuck out of what Tarn actually writes. Either that or start quoting the ebul shit that you see her writing, because frankly I don’t see that stuff (because it isn’t there).
Seriously, check what you’ve written on this post, then go find Tarn saying what you think she said…it isn’t there.
Your internal Tarn model ist gefucked, as the Germans might say.
And it isn’t about Tarn packing a vagina, it’s about me defending my friends. Tarn took the professional feminist bigot on her blog to task several times over the typical feminist bullshit she was pushing. Tarn is a friend to men irl and online. Read her blog.
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@ jf13
I could tell you what pleasurable things my family did with pencils, but then I’d hafta….
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re: “This question, I think, gets at a hidden assumption as regards commitment.”
Very perceptive, again.
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@ jf13
I’m just a bad@$$ that way…lol…I’m not sure anyone but you understood what I was saying, though. There’s so much emotion charged about this topic and all….
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Spawney, the fact is that Tarn dodged and that you white-knighted for her. But it’s your blog, so you can claim Point, Set, Match. I rely on your English sense of fair play.
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re: “Read Tarn’s comments as if written by a youngish, nice, very fair minded bloke who … hasn’t had the usual problems that males have with women while growing up”
Yes, would be exceptional i.e. unusual.
I seem to recall her agreeing that there was a natural length to sexual relationships i.e. the honeymoon period, and while slightly wistfully wishing it could be otherwise she feels gef-ed internally into serial monogamy with nice guys. Would she be *quite* as responsive to Dread from one of those guys as the usual woman would be? Is that an experiment worth doing in order to fulfill the slight wish of longer honeymoon or whatever?
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@ jf13
Deti pings a lot on the subject of women feeling like they are owed commitment. I don’t think that he’s hit this particular aspect of it, though. Maybe he will weigh in and offer some detailed analysis and save me the trouble of trying to reverse-engineer the logic that my intuitional computer spewed out.
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Spin plates if you wish. I have no problem with anyone doing their own thing.
I don’t have a use for a woman that exceeds my perceived costs of gaming one. I’m very verbally playful when I want to be, on a superficial level. Any partner of mine that needs gaming in order to rent her loyalty…nope.
My attitude to you doing what you want with the crockery is also why you lot talking religion on this blog in the way you did…didn’t worry me whatsoever. Hence me telling Bloom to relax, she didn’t have to check that no offence was being perceived, it wasn’t.
I want a blog to bounce ideas around, have people drag stuff in that they found laying about on the web and have a conversation about it.
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I suspect the Tarn response to dread would be to walk away. Exactly as I would. We have many similarities in our thinking.
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re: “women feeling like they are owed commitment”
I’m not afeared of saying it wrong, so I’ll give it a college try. Tarn doesn’t WANT to feel like commitment is owed, and seemly honestly bummed out by the idea of negotiating things like desire, love, commitment, respect, etc. So she’s gone overboard the other direction, like many men do, saying that trying to obtain commitment is tantamount to entrapment etc.
The thing is, it does seem idyllic to many women and to a few men if we just wandered on the sexual grassplains grazing like wildebeests doing whomever we wanted whenever we wanted. Because *many* women and a *few* men can do just that, because of the lack of general desire of women towards men.
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I didn’t white knight anyone. You can call it ‘fair play’ if you wish. I DO insist on that. Stop accusing people of saying stuff unless you can prove they said it. Male or female, IDGAF.
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re: “have people drag stuff in that they found laying about”
Have you ever noticed a mama cat bringing partially disabled mice and big grasshoppers and baby birds to her kittens? The general rule is that the more the stuff kicks and screams, the better. In contrast, cats’ dragged-in offerings to humans are invariably very dead. Often big, usually fresh, but silent and still.
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And Tarn didn’t dodge. Tarn gave up trying to reason with a guy who keeps inventing stuff about what she’s said. I’m getting there too. It’s tedious.
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And Cill @ 10:09 nailed it.
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Men choose to be treated like betas. They don’t walk, they don’t say fuck you bitch they don’t break out their pimp hands. Those are all choices.
Tarns rant @ 747 is about her delusion that men and women are fundamentally the same. Dread is not unethical because of how women are wired at the biological level
A man has three choices
Not play the game
Play the game poorly
Play the game well. Dread is part of playing it well, overtly or covertly.
Equality is a lie. Wanting that lie to come true is like dreaming about winning the lottery vs working harder/smarter. No civilization has been based of equality.
lol with game; you are just now recognizing her programming? You don’t get out much do you?
Reckon I am off my rocker because Tarn comes across as every other I’m not like that woman around. Or it could be the equality indoctrination
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re: kicking and screaming
I’m full of body memories today. In *another* kind of mutual lap-sitting, my sister and I used to lie oppositely together on the couch, feets towards faces, and we would kick at each other, hard enough to hurt; pretend fighting, rules evolving, faces and genitals off limits, some pain required but damage not good because play would be halted. If you need help envisioning it, the posture was sort of like Indian leg wrestling except with a line of symmetry connecting the heads. Maybe we could call it Indian leg punching. I’m not going to tell you what my sister called it because it might be googleable enough to lead to her pages.
We must have done it over a loooong period of time, although not very often, because I certainly remember her doing it in diapers, only kicking out with both her feet together, and I certainly remember her doing it as a young woman, her long legs flailing independently and whaling her heels on my chest and elsewhere. She loved/loves to thrash and kick and scream, in a lot of different ways, and this particular way is the most directly thrashingest and kickingest and screamingest. Knowing me I kept up a steady stream-of-consciousness trash talk but I don’t remember anything I ever said. She has long maintained it’s the most fun she’s ever had (whether it sounds like it or not), and believe me she’s had a LOT of fun besides.
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I see I left out a detail about the kicking game: we held both hands / grasped wrists tightly because the leg activities tended to push us apart. Otherwise the tendency to use arms (for deflection if nothing else) was too great.
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@ Spawney and reading comprehension
My attitude to you doing what you want with the crockery is also why you lot talking religion on this blog in the way you did
“Spinning plates” definitely means “having options” and may mean “having sex”. I have posted about Preselection in the Song of Solomon. The male lover in the SoS was definitely spinning plates. He was around young women, which is why the SoS reports “your name is oil poured out; therefore virgins love you.”
Your assertion of hypocrisy is unfounded, unless you are speaking of conflict with churchian rules and morality.
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Let me add that a woman denying sex is breaking her vow to have and to hold. Hence, I posit the question, is the woman entitled any more to exclusivity? Can she still rightly require the man to forsake all others?
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We appear to to definitional issues over the word ‘rant’ now.
At the end of the day this blog continues only as long as the guy with the ‘keys’ wants to keep it going. Now I know that some of the personal interactions in the past haven’t been seen by all here now, but there are people here that I perceive as friends, and I am loyal to my friends. I also insist on that ‘fair play’ thing too. If that’s what you want to call merely being civil to honest partners in the conversation.
What good outcome do you see coming from trying to drive another of my friends from my blog? You want to discuss things with anyone, go for it. But don’t do it by straw-manning and accusations of ranting.
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Ah geeez! Can’t we all just focus on ME for a we one, hello!!! Princess needs adoration and attention here!
But really, these are all theories. I think it’s good to remember individual rests may vary.
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Also, I seem to have a but job commenting on my blog. If anyone cares about ME!!!! 😉 (the post is in response this this whole discussion btw)
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Err I mean but job! Lol. Autocorrect. Anyone know who this Matthew C. Character is?
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Ak, i mean Nut job. Geeez!
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Sorry, dearest Bloom. 👑Here’s some cake and a drink to make up for the lapse in adoration. 😉 🍷🍰
I just checked out the
trollweird commenter on your blog. He seems an odd one, but he’s not from anyplace I’ve seen. Also, I think his syntax might be off or something…he is just on this side of intelligible.LikeLiked by 2 people
I’m not accusing you of hypocrisy!!!
Where the hell did that come from?
I’m saying that I don’t need you and I to agree on everything. I’m not laying down the one true way. You’re now doing to me what you’ve been doing to others lmao
Just chill a little, this place is supposed to be fun as well as (hopefully) informative. There are nice people here, not hordes waiting to pounce.
I’m off to bed soon, have a nice evening.
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“Let me add that a woman denying sex is breaking her vow to have and to hold. Hence, I posit the question, is the woman entitled any more to exclusivity? Can she still rightly require the man to forsake all others?”
Sounds like Game Over to me. If ‘you’ would prefer to try and game ‘her’ rather than divorce? Up to you. Either way (i went the other way – for different reasons) it’s a crap situation. If ‘she’ would rather divorce than be gamed? That’s her choice.
I would sympathise with the guy, we both married under the influence (of the blue pill).
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Our friend and fellow blogger, Francis, has a new post up. I think it’s pretty funny, although based on a stupid law.
https://francisdroy.wordpress.com/2015/04/15/training-affirmative-consent/
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So, Bloom, DO you think you’re a prophet?
(I’m asking on behalf of Matthew C) 😀
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Only the true messiah would deny her divinity!
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Tarn I left a comment on Francis’ blog and it’s gone onto moderation.
Answer: Never. The fembot Station
MasterMistress schedules them on different rails.LikeLike
Spawney, I’m cornfused about your meaning. In the same sentence you linked crockery and religion and your attitude. Please put the cookies on the lower shelf.
My response to Tarn was that I see no reason why a man shouldn’t spin plates. Tarn’s only option to avoid contempt was divorce, since she didn’t allow Dread (i.e., spinning plates) because that was somehow deceitful/manipulative. I pointed out that a woman can get sex at will, which means that she is always using Dread. (Men typically cannot get sex at will and must spin plates to gain leverage.) Tarn refused to address my points. How can that not be dodging?
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Matt C. may be someone new to the manosphere who is in transition from Blue Pill to RP. Give him time.
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“Tarn doesn’t WANT to feel like commitment is owed, and seemly honestly bummed out by the idea of negotiating things like desire, love, commitment, respect, etc.”
What? No. This is incorrect. It has nothing to do with “wanting” to feel like commitment is owed or not…I don’t think commitment is owed. And I’ve never said or insinuated that negotiations in relationships are something to be “bummed out” by. Quite the contrary, I often have referenced different times my love and I have done just this. For example, the fact that I’d prefer to have very short hair but I keep it waist length for him or that he knows I don’t enjoy cuddling so he doesn’t try to hold me after sex. All healthy relations involve give-and-take. Why do you assume mine is different despite opposing evidence?
“I seem to recall her agreeing that there was a natural length to sexual relationships i.e. the honeymoon period, and while slightly wistfully wishing it could be otherwise she feels gef-ed internally into serial monogamy with nice guys.”
I’m incredibly confused as to when I might have said any of this, unless I was agreeing that it can/does happen to some couples. Personally, my love and I have consistently had sex 1-2x a week for the last 9 years unless one of us is sick or traveling. That’s quite a “honeymoon” period, I must say! And I certainly wouldn’t have anything against dating nice guys, as my man actually *is* one.
“Would she be *quite* as responsive to Dread from one of those guys as the usual woman would be?”
Likely not. I already have read numerous PUA blogs and forums and would immediately be suspicious of anything like what they talk about. I’d probably just be weirded out and leave.
“Is that an experiment worth doing in order to fulfill the slight wish of longer honeymoon or whatever?”
No. It’d be incredibly stupid and unnecessary to try and change not only my entire outlook on relationships, but also my partner’s. Why waste time trying to ‘fix’ something that isn’t broken by smashing it on the floor?
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Gamer, I’ll get back to you tomorrow. Mentioning religion was only supposed to exemplify that I can handle differences of opinion, that was it. I had been wanting to let Bloom know for sure that that was my attitude to her bringing up religion earlier in the week. Shouldn’t have mixed the two issues as it clearly allowed for confusion.
If I had a mission for this blog, it would be to provide a buffet of ideas, attitudes and ways forward and a friendly atmosphere to discuss all of that. If your environment causes you to make different decisions to me? No problem here.
Good night
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Fine, here, I’ll stop “dodging” your question.
You said “I pointed out that a woman can get sex at will, which means that she is always using Dread.”
I find this to be disingenuous. The fact that it is typically easier for a woman to get sex than a man is not indicative of her using Dread. It simply is a fact of life, that men will usually pursue women rather than the reverse. Are some women gleefully aware of this and misuse it to gain advantages over the men in their lives?
Yes. Nobody here will argue that point.
Are there also women who are either incredibly naive to, or even anti-desirous of this “power”?
The answer is also yes.
My FwB was trying to insist only late last year that I should find more sexual partners. He’s says I’m a natural 8, and that I’d have no problem finding a different guy every day of the week. This is a “power” that I did absolutely nothing to cultivate, do not use, and usually will wear loose clothing in an attempt to lower my SMV to prevent gaining unfair advantages.
Point is, my normal body and face are considered attractive to many guys, but it’d be crazy to say I’m “using” Dread by staying healthy and hygienic. It’s the same as when I lean over the counter at work to show a (non-regular male) customer a game or card and they whistle or say something about my “sexy” pose. My body is what it is…I have T&A for days, but that doesn’t mean my bending over to grab a game is anything more than bending over to grab a game. I really want people to stop projecting *deliberate* sexual meanings onto others.
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Now, I’m off to dinner and a movie with the guys, so everyone have a pleasant evening.
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Night Tarn. Hope it’s a good movie. 🙂
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Well Tarn, I had no difficulty understanding your explanations. You have a pleasant evening too.
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Are some women gleefully aware of this and misuse it to gain advantages over the men in their lives?
Some????? Bwahahahaha. Try “most”. I refer you to the CDC statistics showing decreasing sex with age, which women almost universally find acceptable and men almost universally find objectionable.
You said “I pointed out that a woman can get sex at will, which means that she is always using Dread.”
I find this to be disingenuous. The fact that it is typically easier for a woman to get sex than a man is not indicative of her using Dread.
Women use sex for power and withholding sex for power. Without the ability to obtain sex at will, women could not use sex for power. Women have abundance when it comes to sex. Hence, they need fear no sexual repercussions from using sex for power.
Most men (betas) do not have sexual abundance. Women’s implicit threat to withhold sex is a kind of Dread. Soft Dread. The man will worry that the woman is withholding sex from him because she is getting sex from another man. Dread. There. I have spelled it out for you. My point is not disingenuous.
Alphas typically are spinning plates and hence have sexual abundance. When alphas “dump” women, alphas are withholding sex from the dumped women, often permanently. This is nuclear Dread that alphas hold over women. Women similarly may divorce a man and have their own nuclear Dread.
Alphas hold dread over women. Women hold dread over betas.
NAWALT maybe
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Thanks, you two. It’s Kingsmen: The Secret Service…I’ve already seen it, but some of the group haven’t and it’s a great movie imo.
Oh, and just a really quick clarification:
When I said that I wished people wouldn’t project deliberately sexual assumptions onto one’s body movements, that was NOT a shot at healthy male sexuality. For the record, a guy thinking to himself “Wow, this chick is super hot when she leans over the counter” is absolutely fine. The thought police don’t exist, nor should men and women feel ashamed for noticing attractive body types. The issue only appears when the observer (male or female) firmly believes the observee (male or female) is actively “teasing” them or “showing off” simply because of their normal body movements.
Okay, I’m done for real now…TTFN!
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A woman just texted me, inquiring if I was out dancing tonight. Soft Dread.
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There is a new post
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It’s definitional.
asd: “a woman can get sex at will, which means that she is always using Dread.”
rephrase it: “a woman can get sex at will, which means he dreads (understandably) that she will cheat.”
Tarn “Are some women gleefully aware of this and misuse it to gain advantages over the men in their lives?
Yes. Nobody here will argue that point.”
There’s no disagreement.
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Yeah I tho k it best not to argue w Matthew C but also not engage too much…
Cp lol but no, I am not a prophet and certainly not the messiah. Anyone who has been following me for 10 minutes would see I am just trying to understand, like anyone. Pfffft.
Whatever, want to rub me feet, anyone? (Taking Delphine’s gleefully and then very selectively posti g them to social media… Only my best angles! Like, duh!)
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The Kingsmen is a fun movie. I say that as a man who dislikes most movies/ tv etc
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* err selfies gleefully. Who designed this autocorrect? Pffffft.
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@ ton so this mutual foot rub biz doesn’t work why?
And no disrespect but how is Tarn’s fwb less valid than your own?
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And ton that is not said argumentally, I am truly curious…
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asd “A woman just texted me, inquiring if I was out dancing tonight. Soft [shoe] Dread” XD
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Fwb are just that. That does not lend weight to any type of relationship experience. Casual it is. And getting a Fwb is as easy as breathing for women. It’s a non accomplishment. My various FwB are just that. Just banging. That gives me street cred on how to get girls out of their panties but none toward running a LTR.
Women (and in a hurry) see mutual as submissive and then out comes the contempt. Women, like dogs and Germans are at your feet or at your throat
Mutual anything is the kind of advice married men get all the time and the divorce rate proves how well that works.
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I don’t see what’s so terribly evil about Dread. I mean, it’s kinda manipulative, but it’s treated as absolute evil by blue pillers. Making someone somewhat uncomfortable isn’t that big of a deal. In some ways, Dread is just standing up for yourself, and showing your value to the person who’s starting to take you for granted. If you don’t like Dread, you could always dial down again, and break up.
Having said that, if my man started to use Dread, it would be mortifying. It would mean that either I’ve done something bad, or he’s gone alpha, both of which are not acceptable.
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I don’t see what’s so terribly evil about Dread. I mean, it’s kinda manipulative
Please explain how men having the same options as women is manipulative in any sense.
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theadsgamer,
When I say it’s manipulative, I mean it’s not an upfront and honest type of communication. A lot of things are manipulation – makeup, using a specific body language and tone with the goal of having specific effect. I view it as a tool, not good or bad.
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@ Emma
Please explain your concept of Dread.
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Dread is having other options, whether they are other women, hanging out with friends or even a hobby you are passionate about. Dread, IMO, could be unintentional, like when you’re just high value, desired by women, friends, and having a mission that isn’t your woman. It could also be intentional, like when you direct your attention to other things and people, with the goal of making your partner feel something of value might slip away from them.
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LOL your new screen name still.takes me by surprise.
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@ Emma
I mean it’s not an upfront and honest type of communication
How does this square with your definition of Dread? I don’t see anything in your definition that implies deceptive communication. Spinning plates isn’t deceptive in and of itself.
Some of us older married types agree that it’s often a good plan to not be upfront and honest about some of the stuff that happens precisely because it might invoke Dread. In those cases, a white lie might be the best choice.
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I still fail to see how leveling the playing field is in any way unfair, deceptive, abusive etc. It seems like some of you women are united around justifying maintaining your advantage in the SMP. That’s fine, but don’t go shaming by calling men’s attempt to level the playing field manipulative, deceptive, or abusive.
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theasdgamer,
Hmm, I don’t know if Dread is necessarily dishonest then. But can covert communication ever be 100% honest? Instead of telling someone how things are, you try affect how they feel by your actions. You want that person to feel and act a certain way, and you are not necessarily letting them in on your plans.
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“Some of us older married types agree that it’s often a good plan to not be upfront and honest about some of the stuff that happens”
I was too honest in my marriage, I think. Temperamentally that’s who I am. As you say, Gamer, I don’t think it’s always the best way. I’m not directly talking about small d dread here. Sometimes circumstances leave the man with the choice between appearing beta (explaining), or appearing alpha (not explaining). Not explaining can instill a little dread/tingles because women just be like that at times. But the alternative is actively harmful to her respect for him.
Nice guys just explain too much, they think if everyone understands, everything will be better. I’ve seen warnings by cops to nice mops; if the cops want to talk to you, get a lawyer and stfu. Many nice people get themselves into deep shit with the law because they think that if they explain enough, it will all go away. What they do is arm their opposition with more facts to be misrepresented. And fuel suspicion in the cops.
MOP = Member Of Public.
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@ Emma
You want that person to feel and act a certain way, and you are not necessarily letting them in on your plans.
“A certain way” meaning “that I’m not a beta schlub with Oneitis and no options which would imply that I’m unattractive”. Options are the key thing; the impact on the partner is secondary, though important.
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@Tarn, re: “for the last 9 years”
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I had thought you said you wouldn’t be surprised when/if your fwb situration ended, so I suppose I assumed it was shorter than that.
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Emma started a thread on the topic of dread recently:
https://emmatheemo.wordpress.com
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re: “The fact that it is typically easier for a woman to get sex than a man is not indicative of her using Dread. It simply is a fact of life”
What is disengenuous is pretending that “using” Dread voluntarily, i.e. to level the playing field, is bad, while just “having” Dread attached to you semi-involuntarily (“It just followed me home; what else was I supposed to do?”) is good. As tasdg was first and foremost pointing out.
Leave it to women, alphas, and white knights to outlaw anything a beta can do to improve his situation.
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re: “Options are the key thing; the impact on the partner is secondary”
Again this is awfully perceptive. Supposedly “using” options to primarily influence the partner is “bad”, but “having” options primarily selfishly disregarding your partner is “good”.
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Contempt is how a woman treats a man who she feelz is trying to make her like him.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
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Are you capable of communicating in a way that doesn’t come across like a person sitting in bumper to bumper traffick after having and already shitty day? Ever?
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“I still fail to see how leveling the playing field is in any way unfair, deceptive, abusive etc.”
When phrased like that, there’s nothing wrong. And if one is not in any type of committed relationship, then “spinning plates” is to be expected from both the man and woman…For example, TRP reddit forum usually tells newbie posters that they really shouldn’t give a damn whether one of their plates is seeing someone else on the side. This aspect of “dread” is 100% okay, because everyone should have options if that’s what they want.
The Dread I was referring to was the type Heartiste (and similar bloggers) describes on his blog though. From his website:
Women respond viscerally in their vagina area to unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama in spite of their best efforts to convince themselves otherwise. Managing your relationship in such a way that she is left with a constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom will do more for your cause than all the Valentine’s Day cards and expertly performed tongue love in the world. Like it or not, the threat of a looming breakup, whether the facts justify it or not, will spin her into a paranoid estrogen-fueled tizzy, and she’ll spend every waking second thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it. Her love for you will blossom under these conditions. Result: she works harder to please you.
So, this is the basis he works off of. Notice that he doesn’t say anything about Dread being used to combat Contempt…he just thinks you should use it right off the bat. Let’s leave aside the fact that the female commenters here have mostly all stated that they prefer stable, mutually supportive relationships to ones with “unpredictability, mixed signals, danger, and drama”. We’ll assume that the type women Heartiste is talking about somehow does enjoy those traits. Is it still ethical to give said woman a “constant, gnawing feeling of impending doom” and to “spin her into a paranoid, estrogen fueled tizzy”? One might argue that because she likes drama, that you’re really only giving her what she wants. However, this is a bit of a slippery slope…some people like very rough BDSM but have been put into scenes/situations where the Dom went overboard, or worse, did not stop when given the safe word. If the goal of Dread is to make your partner “spend every waking moment thinking about you, thinking about the relationship, thinking about how to fix it” then when will you know when she’s had enough and actually let up on the mind games? The potential to accidentally make her think you’re actually trying to leave her rather than just keeping your options open could backfire immensely. For example, if she finally grows a backbone and some self-esteem she might just pack her bag and leave to find someone who won’t play mind games. She could become clinically depressed, as nothing she does seems good enough for you, she could become severely paranoid and put a tracking app on your phone, call your friends, job, and parents constantly looking for you. It’s even possible she will get into a physical or verbal altercation with a woman you work with/a female friend who is innocent (but guilty in her eyes). If one is using the type of Dread that Heartiste describes above, he better be an absolute pro at knowing the mental state of his partner if he doesn’t want worse problems.
Okay, maybe I’m overreacting. Let’s take a look at some of the ways to instill Dread that he condones:
Turn off your cell phone twice a week. Alternate days. Don’t do this on a Friday or Saturday night unless the relationship is shaky and needs a high voltage jolt of dread.
Not a terrible thing to do, but just seems to inconvenience the phone owner more than anything else. Unless he has a backup phone, won’t he miss other calls from his job, friends, or family? And how does this instill Dread, regardless? When my love’s phone is off, I just assume his battery ran dry or he left it at home again and I know he’ll see my message and get back to me when it’s convenient for him. It’s hardly a big deal.
Make a blatant but plausibly deniable move on one of her friends when she’s not around. The news will get back to her. Milk it.
I’m sure there are ways for one to hit on a woman that is both “blatant” AND “deniable”…but I don’t know them, lol. Why you’d want 2 women angry at you, I’ve no idea. Have fun with that. Conversely, if your partner’s friend responds well to your move then you have successfully outed one of her “friends” as an opportunistic snake-in-the-grass, and your partner should thank you for helping to get rid of shitty people in her life. So…yay?
Call her from a very busy place so that she can hear women’s voices laughing and shrieking in the background. Don’t tell her where you are when she asks. Just say you’ll see her soon.
This one might work, since she can actually hear other women in the background. Of course, unless you’re standing inside a female only gym or a Women’s Studies classroom…she’s probably going to hear male voices too. While I’d think it a little weird that my partner not tell me where he is, I’d still be happy that he thought of me enough to call and let me know he’s on his way to see me. 🙂
Mention how skilled your Russian ex was at giving head. Bring it up again a few days later, pretending not to remember the first time you mentioned it.
Okay…so what? If you want a blowjob, just ask. Hell, my guy just needs to leave his pants undone when he’s on my couch, same as I just have to casually take off my shirt. Sex is awesome, and if one of your past lovers did something better than I do, then teach me how. Again, how does this make anyone feel constant, gnawing doom?
Be seen by your girlfriend flirting with other women in a social venue. Extra points if the women are attractive. Double extra points if you flirt without looking back at your girlfriend once to check her reaction.
This is either slightly crappy behavior, or stupid. Stupid, because what’s to stop her from doing the same to you with some random guy? Slightly crappy, because it shows her and any women who know her that you’re a “dog” who can’t control himself enough to not chase random skirts. I could see this as an effective retaliation technique, like if she recently insinuated that you’re “losing your touch” or is actively trying to keep you on a short leash. But then, you’re not doing it just because you can…You’re doing it as a gentle reminder that you have options and she shouldn’t be mean to you. So, Dread-ful? Yes, but I can see a situation where it’s okay to use.
Cook her a romantic candlelight dinner at home. Make it a memorable experience, complete with jazz, chocolate, and rose petals. Then, do not talk with her for four days afterwards.
This would just be weird, and on the 3rd day of no communication I’d call your job’s desk or phone line to make sure you were at least not dead in an alley somewhere. If 4 days goes by without you returning any calls or texts, then I’m going to assume you’re really pissed about something and will trust you’ll talk about it when you are capable. But once I know you’re safe, I’m not going to keep trying to get up in your business. That’s kinda rude.
Also, lol at the rose petals…I can’t help but think of terribly directed pornos or sickly-sweet chick flicks when I imagine rose petals strewn around. 😛
Ignore her calls for a week. When you eventually answer and she reads you the riot act, act as if nothing was wrong and accuse her of sabotaging a perfectly good relationship, “just like all the other women in this stupid city. I thought you were different”. Hang up on her angrily.
Assuming that I didn’t just follow my plan from the last example above, and I actually was upset about no communication for a week, I’d point out that a long lack of communication between people who are supposedly “together” is actually not healthy. How can I support someone if they don’t talk to me at all? That’s just dumb…we’re either there for each other or we’re not, and that goes for regular friendships too. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, fine…but when I respond by ignoring all of *your* calls the following week, let me know how that works for you.
When her best friend tells you how cute you and your girlfriend look together, shrug, put your hand to the back of your neck as if to scratch an itch there, look down slightly and with a mildly annoyed expression blandly sigh “Yeeeeah…”. Triple bonus points if your girlfriend is standing right there.
Assuming this wasn’t said in anything approaching a joking manner, and you actually sound like you meant it…Next! Have a nice life, buddy. I’ll bring any stuff you left at my place to your best friend’s house. Call me when you’re capable of discussing relationship problems with your partner before they get to the point where you’re obviously unhappy or frustrated.
When she attempts the jealousy maneuver by flirting with another guy, act unfazed. Give her pickup tips.
This is actually very similar to how my male threesome fantasy starts out (minus the jealousy part). Sooooo, to me this is just all kinds of hot. Probably not the intended response, lol. 😛
Gaze longingly into her eyes, say how hot she looks, then immediately glance sidelong at the bosom of any strange woman in the vicinity.
I turn and look too. 😉 This probably works better on jealous, strictly hetero women.
“Have a threesome. Spend an inordinate amount of time admiring the labia of the other woman. Be sure to moan louder with her. WARNING: If you cum on the other woman you will have to spend weeks consoling your girlfriend.”
The “admiring the labia” thing is kinda strange, but hey…if she’s got pretty “petals”, I want to see too. Moaning louder with her just means I’ll ask later what was so good so I can duplicate it next week. Either that, or I’ll assume that it was due to the fact you’re finally checking off your fantasy of having a threesome and are just really lost in the moment. Regardless, I’m glad you’re so satisfied. 🙂 💙 Also, cum wherever you want. I mean, we’re already sharing each other intimately and are hopefully all participating. It’s not like I’d be in a state of mind to keep tabs on your jizz, lol.
Say things like “I really value my independence and freedom” relevant to nothing in particular. It’s just a thought that popped in your head.
I take your hand, look deep in your eyes, and say “I do too.” 😀 😀 😀
Thermonuclear Option:
Have an affair and make sure she finds out about it. Arrange the confrontation so that it does not happen at your place. When she confronts you, don’t get defensive. Don’t speak at all. Let her vent. Let her punch you in the chest and scream obscenities. When she takes a breather, tell her she’s never looked more beautiful and you will never stop loving her. Then without waiting for her response calmly walk out the door and break off all contact for two weeks. When she comes back to you… and she will… you will have a love slave for life.
This is the most Dread-full thing he’s said so far, and what I was picturing while having the conversation yesterday.
Alright, so…First off, I’d be tremendously hurt and betrayed by the fact you had an affair that you didn’t tell me about. I don’t believe in lifelong monogamy for most of our species, and even if I was actually full on dating someone I’d want it to be an open relationship. The fact that you don’t trust me enough to let me know you have another partner would just be absolutely crushing. Even so, that would not be a reason to hit you or scream…physical and verbal abuse is NEVER an option. It is a line that, once you cross it, you can’t ever really go back. 😦
Using the line of “You’re beautiful, and I love you” in the middle of talking about a hard betrayal like that and walking out is a classic technique used by narcissists, egomaniacs, and abusers/potential abusers. I learned that in my 8th grade Health class for crying out loud…it’s hardly a secret or some ultra impressive new thing. Drop a “love bomb”, walk out when she’s in pain and insecure but still has feelings for you, remove communications so she feels more lost and desperate to reconcile, then finally “take her back”. Congratulations! You successfully manipulated someone when they are at their lowest point! Hope that makes you happy.
Of course, she could have taken the same classes I did, see what you’re trying to do, and use that 2 week no communication period to get rid of your stuff, block your phone number, unfriend you from her social media, and take a personal vacation to get her head back on straight. It’s sad that any time was spent on you, and it will undoubtedly hurt for a while…but in the end, this was a learning experience and will make it easier to avoid assholes in the future.
So, there you go. Heartiste’s versions of Dread (and not so Dread). Only 2 or 3 of these were what I was actually thinking of as Dread, so perhaps we were miscommunicating. If so, I apologize for not asking for further clarity.
Have a great day, all!
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And it all starts, all meaning women’s contempt, at puberty. It’s not the men’s fault.
Off topic again. I put the kibosh on the kicking game at about the time that there was no good way to be feeling my sister’s rear end squirming against mine. I know I told her something about getting bigger, but I misled her into thinking it had to do with kicking too hard and hurting her. And more than fifty years later, maybe she still believes that, or maybe she’s figured it out.
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@ Tarn
And if one is not in any type of committed relationship, then “spinning plates” is to be expected from both the man and woman
The problem is the phrase, “if one is not in any type of committed relationship….” A man always needs options since the woman always has options. In a committed relationship or otherwise.
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My oldest brother (from my dad) shot himself in the head when I was 13.
I never played cuddle kick games with him. Maybe if I had, I’m be super-douper contemptuous.
Bye. I’ll be back, eventually. I fucking hate toxic shite.
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Neither of my sisters are particularly contemptuous, but they pursued their men.
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And the women, alphas, and white knights all agree this is the strategy they’d like to see betas adopt: “Stop pursuing women! LET women pursue you instead! How hard can it be, to see this is win/win/win for anyone who counts?”
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Heartiste’s stuff is over the top and effective. Definitely for the Machiavellian sociopathic types.
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re: “place is supposed to be fun”
I will try to be more fun. I CAN be fun, but I don’t know if I should HAVE to be fun.
Wouldn’t it be fun to be so empowered as to tell a woman “Make me want to be more fun!”
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I’m pretty sure there no real fun way to express anguish regarding contempt, dark triad stuff, and the other informative aspects of these topics. But more than that, yet again I see ONLY anti-relevance in NAWALT in a post ostensibly about the tendency to baseless contempt in women as the fundamental cause of relationship deterioration. Does it help to have women say “well if it’s baseless then she wouldn’t feel that way”?
If that’s not what the women are attempting to communicate, then what else does it mean, here, on this topic, to say “I don’t have contempt because my guy is just so awesome.”?
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Fun.
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Spare us the preaching, dogmatic, self-righteous Red Pill Saviors.
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“I will try to be more fun. I CAN be fun, but I don’t know if I should HAVE to be fun.”
Not aimed at you in particular, but how about when one is in a goddamn pissy mood, go play on another blog where that’s the ambiance already? It’s what I do (yes, really).
because if I let nice people get driven off (even temporarily), this place is less engaging for me. WTH would I continue to run a blog that drags me down? The answer is, of course; I won’t. So I’ll fix the blog or hand the keys over to someone else.
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re: Red Pill fun
Ok. So, I guess, the funnest part of the Red Pill stuff (see title of this post, e.g.) is that the actual application of it works so well. Wouldn’t you say? The theoretical aspects and implications are rather distressing or depressing.
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And, to jf13’s point–this post’s theme doesn’t tend to lead to fun, but to despair. Soooo, whining about comments here not being fun is…I hesitate to use the word…autistic? lolz See, this monkey can dance!
Maybe we should take the Italian view–everything is hopeless, but not serious. Get a fakking mistress. It’s the Italian thing to do.
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“Maybe we should take the Italian view–everything is hopeless, but not serious.”
Not bad. Might already be my attitude already.
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re: despair
The opposite of despair is solutions. So, in attempting to discuss solutions to contempt, we were trying to Keep Hope Alive.
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Spawny, maybe there have been too many downer posts lately? Just spitballing here…maybe a humor competition post, where everyone tries to be engagingly playful and people vote with likes?
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jf13: Less of the yak and more care with what people have actually said. That would be good.
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I apologize for any part I might have played. I did get defensive up above, and while I’m not sorry for *that*, I did use language that is atypical for me. It was unnecessary and didn’t help the tone.
Re: Have fun
This blog was originally the brainchild of Spawny, along with Cill and myself, because I’d been having troll trouble and my blog was on constant moderation like Francis’s. This made it difficult to keep up with the fun banter and insightful but still humorous comments we threw at each other. It *is* possible to discuss RP topics without tossing personal accusations or claiming AWALT every 2 comments, believe it or not. We did so for…what? Over a year, at least. Nobody’s feelings got hurt, everyone was able to talk about personal anecodotes as well as public observations, and while we all agreed that women generally have an easier time in the X, Y, and Z sections of society we also agreed that they have issues to deal with in section Q or T. Generalizations were accepted for just that…generalizations. NOT a loophole to say “99% of women are X” or “100% of Beta dudes do Y”.
I think this is what we miss. I know I do.
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Hell, I can dish out a bit of angst of my own – everybody here knows I can – but I don’t do it loudly and incessantly in the faces of people who’ve made it clear they need a break from it.
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I will try to be more fun. I CAN be fun, but I don’t know if I should HAVE to be fun.
I strongly sympathize with this point of view, as I suspect Farm Boy does. Liz is entitled to you being more fun. P To be fair, you apparently pinged a trigger that she has about losing a brother. So, I’d disregard Liz’s reply as being a one-off. Following the logic, Spawney should also disregard the incident.
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“Spawny, maybe there have been too many downer posts lately? Just spitballing here…maybe a humor competition post, where everyone tries to be engagingly playful and people vote with likes?”
I get nothing for covering the farce of the UK elections?
Damn you’re a tough crowd.
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Tingles generate this will,
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/us/aaron-hernandez-verdict/
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Cill, is Choicy available for another post?
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re: performance anxiety
Why is it so difficult to be fun whilst *trying* to be fun?
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“Spawney should also disregard the incident.”
I’m looking back to just before my OFFS comment. Or rather, from then on.
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And thanks to Tarn for getting me to look at how Dread automatically works for women in relationships. My intuitional computer spewed out the result of my social data input and it needed reasoned support.
This post gave me some useful material for my book–mainly my own comments in response to other’s comments. (“Hie thee to the Literary Masturbatorium!” Heh.) So, even the despairing tone of the comments resulted in useful (and hopeful) material.
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I’ll ask him.
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Politics is even more depressing than intimate relationships. Not much engagement there, either.
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The posts are on serious topics without being too gloomy or depressing. Actually I’m not complaining about gloomy or depressing comments either. I’m talking about more care to notice when after going on and on, the other commenter needs a break.
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*cough* must I remind the honorable gentleman
“Maybe we should take the Italian view–everything is hopeless, but not serious.”
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I like you jokers being here. We all should pay other commenters the respect of reading their comments carefully before launching into a criticism, is all.
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Will Choicy accept payment in fush’n’chups, fish’n’chips, or will he insist on payment in strine?
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“We all should pay other commenters the respect of reading their comments carefully before launching into a criticism”
That would be a miraculous step forward, it must be said
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Let us not be like the new Italian fleet, which has transparent bottoms on its ships so they can keep an eye on the old fleet.
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Choicy will have six fish, six chips and six camelsChoicy will have sex feesh, sex cheeps and sex camels, and he’ll be hunky dory.
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So in strine that’s feesh’n’cheeps?
What he does with his camels is between him and them, ‘slong as they don’t get the hump, why should I care?
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“will he insist on payment in strine”
He’ll prefer New Zild to strine they way our dollar is climbing against theirs.
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Would a flunky dory be a chase boat for a politician’s launch?
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(you’ll note I resisted the urge to add “sex PPPs” there)
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With so much QE going on, submarine interest rates it’s very hard to to take exchange rates seriously…until you need to change money, of course.
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“flunky dory” get the feeling that the only people that caught that are thee and me, Cill?
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It seems logical that at least one reason to familiarize oneself with manipulation techniques would be to inoculate oneself against manipulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_Machina_(film)
But even in the “real” world, for most infectious agents (most; not saying worst), there is no substitute for “live virus” types of inoculations, which *necessarily* cause their own problems.
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Choicy will need a topic. Can anyone suggest something?
(He’s an outback Aussie of the Crocodile Dundee variety)
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He does actually hunt salties (crocs).
possible topic: “Which will gobble you quicker, a croc or a PPP?”
(no that’s a bit on the crude side)
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Behaviorally, we know betas feel they *should* try to be more pleasing to women, obviously based upon what they are led to believe is pleasing. There is no evolved primate drive to gift a banana in particular, for example; if he perceives oranges work better then oranges it will be. So much for perception of betaness from the male perspective. Really, that’s all there is to it.
What about from the female perspective? Clearly, she perceives betas as those males who *should* try to be more pleasing to her. Right? Any disagreements at all so far? In contrast, she perceives alphas as requiring *her* to be more pleasing, but I’m getting somewhere. Trying to make fun of women’s contempt.
Contempt in this context is clearly seen as a method of communicating the female’s sense of the male’s failing to be sufficiently pleasing in the frame of her being entitled to be pleased by him; therefore contempt communicates NOTHING but her perception of his betaness. Primate Going His Own Way thereafter would not solve her frame.
But would PGHOW preempt *new* females’ sense of entitlement? How total must a male’s disregard for, i.e. how little care for, females’ being pleased is necessary for *new* females to feel disentitled?
I think empirically we can all agree that a male seen to be all-too pleasing to ANY one female instantly is beta to all other females. And even if, not inrequently, the females compete for him, it is to be pleased by him instead of pleasing to him. Yes?
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Cill,
Which has more sexual allure: Big Red or a Cane Toad?
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Yes, if I bring myself to stop laughing…
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Best way to order croc?
“I’ll have the Croc salad and make it snappy!”, too gauche?
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If, when contempt fails, the Female Goes Her Own Way, i.e. away from the beta, I further believe that FGHOW does not solve her framing.
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The *fun* is in the application …
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“Tie me kangaroo down”
Kinbaku / Shibari fun with marsupials…is it for everyone?
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Rumours of porn content in
discuss…maybe translate and then discuss
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That’s why I crack jokes and be rediculous at times, btw, to give some comic relief
Agreed this place can get a little too heavy at times. Some here seem just as intent on proving and proclaiming “all women are ebul” as feminists do with the “all men are ebul” stuff.
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Galah vs Fembot in a battle of wits…can there be a winner in such a tournament of the unarmed?
(“Galah” is also derogatory Australian slang, synonymous with ‘fool’ or ‘idiot’. As I hear it, such birds fly down the middle of roads oblivious to the traffic – they are dumb, fembot dumb perhaps?)
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“such birds fly down the middle of roads oblivious to the traffic”
Now don’t you blame the birds for getting hit by cars…thas victim blaming that is
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Is a vindaloo curry made with such birds colloquially called a ‘flaming galah’?
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“What is Women Marsupials They Be” a good topic it is.
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that’s victim blaming that is
Better state this I could not do.
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Inspiration for Big Red the Gulag bird is.
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It’s 5:15 a.m. and I’ve just consumed 5 Hot Cross Buns homemade by my mother. Out of the freezer, they were still very nyummy.
Choicy loves the repartee. I’ll toss all the above at him (plus anything else we can come up with) and he can take it from there.
He especially likes the ladies.
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Galah instead of gulag it should be.
Though Big Red would throw all men into gulag if she could.
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Bloom is the desensitization therapy finito?
Pity, I feel as if it barely started. 😀
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Translate “Waltzing Matilda” into Yodish someone could?
Similar to Lumberjack song it would be?
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An Aussie feminist PPP roo that shuns shaving…a woolly jumper?
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He’s not a MGHOW but he hates feminists and lefties and rugby referees dressed in pink and he gets into trouble with his total lack of political correctness.
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“He’s not a MGHOW but he hates feminists and lefties and rugby referees dressed in pink and he gets into trouble with his total lack of political correctness.”
Are you sure he’s not just the reflection that you get in the mirror? Sounds mighty familiar to me.
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Judging by the likes, Alana has a very evolved sense of humour
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A Like on me from Bloom would show she evolved good sense of humor too.
It would also be a benevolent, if not charitable, gesture, earning her some stars for her crown in Paradise. 😉
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Big thread this is.
Move to the next one we might.
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Anybody else? I feel that I am carrying the Thylacine’s share of suggestions here. Even a Patriarch must rest.
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Go for it, Yoda. I assume that you have one ready to roll? My political one has gone down like the usual…
One last try
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That’s Winston Churchill and dressed pork, innit?
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[audio src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17757917/Politicians.mp3" /]
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Winston Churchill was staggering down a corridor of the House of Commons, having finished his daily bottle of Scotch. The socialist MP Bessie Braddock was walking towards her and he bumped her as she passed.
She said ‘Mr Churchill, you are drunk, and what’s more, you are disgustingly drunk.’
Prime Minister responded: ‘My dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly.’
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Here you go…Monster Raving Loony GE2015 policies
Global warming to be cured by putting the aircon units on the outside of buildings.
Own brand beer; Monster Mash
Make the Circle line in the London Underground truly circular (stolen from UKIP, it seems)
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Her affect on local gravity cause the storm in background it did?
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I like the cut of that Monster Raving Loony Leader’s jib.
iirc in a recent byelection the Monster Raving Loony candidate scored 25% of the votes scored by one of the major parties (Liberal party?). How embarrassing for the Libs.
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“Her affect on local gravity cause the storm in background it did?”
She bottom-coughed
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“irc in a recent byelection the Monster Raving Loony candidate scored 25% of the votes scored by one of the major parties (Liberal party?). How embarrassing for the Libs.”
rings a bell
By-election 2014: Clacton
Party Candidate Votes % ±%
UKIP Douglas Carswell 21,113 59.7 N/A
Conservative Giles Watling 8,709 24.6 -28.4
Labour Tim Young 3,957 11.2 -13.8
Green Chris Southall 688 1.9 +0.7
Liberal Dem Andrew Graham 483 1.4 -11.5
Independent Bruce Sizer 205 0.6 N/A
Monster Raving Loony Alan “Howling Laud” Hope 127 0.4 N/A
Independent Charlotte Rose 56 0.2 N/A
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@ Spawney
I think I’m going back to IDGAS mode.
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GAS should not be a full-time occupation IMHO
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Show that you care more, by caring less.
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How much less?
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Enough that you can still enjoy life.
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re: “How much less?”
I don’t care!
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I could care less.
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Women crave drama
Dread is a a way to.deliver the drama she craves on the man’s term
Dread version A is no more or less moral then Dread version B
The arguments above is less about dread and more about how comfortable someone is operating in the truth/ reality of how women are wired vs any absolute moral truth.
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re: “Dread version A is no more or less moral then Dread version B”
I agree. That’s why I find moral high-grounders to be silly who claim that instead of “behaving” like a guys with options, just “becoming” a guy with options is morally superior.
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I think the objection to faux Dread is that it is deceptive and manipulative, whereas real Dread is genuine. It’s harder to argue against genuine Dread (i.e., a man with options as opposed to pretending that he has options).
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No the argument is some types of dread are “abusive bad” etc
Some is real just by having options
Some forms are ok
Some times it’s a matter of.degree
Pick your shotgun pattern.
My version is be good or be gone bitch/ dummp that bitch bang 10 more but that is because of my temperament.
None are better then the other; it’s a matter of.what is effective on the target
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“None are better then the other; it’s a matter of.what is effective on the target”
Yup. And for some, that target is their wife. For others, their rules of engagement are more forgiving.
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