MGTOW and Women


Sandman posted a video on women’s reaction to him explaining what MGTOW was to them.  Their reaction invariably was, “Men are not allowed to do this”.  Implied in this answer is that men are required to work hard to develop themselves, accumulate resources, pay taxes, and at least offer themselves up for selection by women.  Of course, many would not be selected anyway (or maybe in their late thirties), but at least they are supposed to try.

The concept of MGTOW causes women both shock and horror.  For the modern entitled women assumes that men will always fawn over her and give her what she needs (either directly or indirectly through taxes).  And of course, women build much of their lives around attracting men for this purpose (that, and getting good seed).  So, when men suggest that they are not playing that game, all of their investment in themselves for the sake of snagging a man goes down the drain potentially.  And much of their self-worth also. Not to mention potential children.  For if enough men do go MGTOW, it will affect the SMP, the MMP and the economy greatly.

Women might suggest that men going MGTOW might destroy society.  And they might be correct.  But MGTOW men are indifferent to this plea.  For they can no longer have a family to call their own {it would legally be her family), and as a result, really do not have anything at stake.

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Posted in FarmBoy, Marriage, MGTOW
188 comments on “MGTOW and Women
  1. Tarnished says:

    “Sandman posted a video on women’s reaction to him explaining what MGTOW was to them.  Their reaction invariably was, “Men are not allowed to do this”.”

    Well, it was kind of a video about that. Unfortunately it was only him talking…If someone could post a video (or bunch of videos) with actual filmed interviews of various women responding to the concept of MGTOW, that would be awesome. Ideally, the women should be from all walks of life, education, ethnicity, and preferably the ages of 18-40. Perhaps some correlations could even be made.

    I attempted to do this on my blog last year…a sort of mirror post to my initial MGTOW Survey. Unsurprisingly, only 2 women gave answers, whereas I have data from nearly 30 MGTOWs. *sigh*

    “So, when men suggest that they are not playing that game, all of their investment in themselves for the sake of snagging a man goes down the drain potentially.”

    I fail to see a real problem with this. Many women (not all) waste a significant amount of time on playing the SMP, when they could be doing what other women and many (not all) men are doing instead. Namely, improving themselves, learning to handle adult responsibilities, becoming frugal, and gaining life experiences that will make them better people all around. The way I see it, MGTOW is the best path towards true equality. It is nonviolent, entails no additional costs to it’s “members”, is incredibly flexible and individualistic, and involves men and women being treated the same way.

    MGTOW FTW. 👍🎉

    Like

  2. Farm Boy says:

    If someone could post a video (or bunch of videos) with actual filmed interviews of various women responding to the concept of MGTOW, that would be awesome.

    Did you just volunteer?

    Like

  3. Farm Boy says:

    Like, how could anybody turn down being interviewed by a unicorn?

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Tarnished says:

    “Like, how could anybody turn down being interviewed by a unicorn?”

    Heh. Very easily. I’ve gently broached the topic of men remaining “eternal bachelors” with enough college-age women that I know I’d be skinned, roasted, and have my horn chopped off were I to actually discuss the relevance of MGTOW…much less film it and post it somewhere.

    Like

  5. Farm Boy says:

    I know I’d be skinned, roasted, and have my horn chopped off were I to actually discuss the relevance of MGTOW

    Perhaps this answers your question

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Tarnished says:

    True.

    I wonder if any of our lurkers or female commenters have stories to share, though. I know our friend Francis has had discussions with women regarding such topics before…

    Like

  7. The thing about mtgtow that makes me sad is that as far as I can see a lot of the mtgtow men are those who “get it” and would make great partners, but if they opt out then it’s the unaware and the uncaring. Boo 😦

    * not that I am saying they do t have a right or it’s not ok, just that it’s a big loss, I wish more could see that…

    Liked by 2 people

  8. * I wish more *women* could see that

    Liked by 1 person

  9. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    That you wouldexpect such a violent reaction indicates that you have hit a sore spot.

    MGTOW is a reaction to women breaking the social contract and, yet, still enforcing it on men. It is defense.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. M says:

    I’d like to record my agreement with Bloom’s comment. MGTOW include the men I as a woman would admire most.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Tarnished says:

    “The thing about mtgtow that makes me sad is that as far as I can see a lot of the mtgtow men are those who great it and would make great partners…”

    It’s occurred to me more than once that when/if my FwB and I part ways, that an older MGTOW (who still involves himself with females) would be a fantastic mate.

    No pressure for commitment.
    No push for marriage.
    No jealousy over my male friends.
    No chivalry.
    Held to the same standard and earn respect the same as other men.

    Verily, it’d be a good match. 🙂

    “That you would expect such a violent reaction indicates that you have hit a sore spot.”

    To be honest Fuzzie, the responses I’d gotten in the past were usually of 2 types;

    1. A belief than men remaining bachelors could only happen for so many years, because the masculine need for sex would win out every time. These women weren’t afraid at all, and quite confident that even if men from age 19-30 were shunning women, that they’d “wise up” as they got older.
    2. An entitled, self-righteous anger. These were the women who, upon hearing that some straight men saw no purpose to opposite sex relationships, immediately used shaming language…calling such men “little boys” or “immature jerks” or even “misogynists”. I thought this was very interesting, in that they had a visceral (and ready made) reaction to the simple idea of potentially being rejected that they immediately spoke as though it had just occurred. If a mere mind experiment of “What if no man wanted to marry you?” created that level of hostility and defensiveness…Well, I’d hate to be the poor guy who ever actually turns their attentions away.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Poseidon says:

    MGTOW is aware men responding in a self-preservatorial way to the reality of our current pathological culture. The foregoing of intimate relationships in exchange for a peaceful life. (peace without piece. (haha))

    Liked by 1 person

  13. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    I just saw a video from a woman who is anti-feminist. It seems that feminists are all over her like she is a traitor to their cause and that, being female, she is automatically in the “union”.

    Reminists do have a lot of audacity in promoting the concept that they speak for all women.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Poseidon says:

    “It’s occurred to me more than once that when/if my FwB and I part ways, that an older MGTOW (who still involves himself with females) would be a fantastic mate. ”

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm………..

    Like

  15. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    The presumption that men are slaves to their libidoes has to be treated as false. How did boys make it through high school?
    The other, entitled reaction worries me. It is presumption on a huge scale.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. theasdgamer says:

    No pressure for commitment.
    No push for marriage.
    No jealousy over my male friends.
    No chivalry.
    Held to the same standard and earn respect the same as other men.

    Lol, guess I’m GMOW, too. I open doors for Mrs. Gamer, tho, so maybe I don’t qualify. And if thugs were to accost Mrs. Gamer, I’d likely put my skin in the game, so the no chivalry thing is out.

    Like

  17. Tarnished says:

    Poseidon,

    “Unfortunately”, I’m very happy with my lover, and have been for years. 😉 However, if/when our relationship ends, then I’d actively seek out a MGTOW as a new partner.

    Fuzzie,
    As an egalitarian/nonfeminist, I’ve had to correct many women who automatically assume that simply because I have a vagina I must also be a feminist. Often they use the argument that because I believe Women = People, I’m one of them. They get very frustrated when I state that I also believe Men = People as well, or that if women want equal rights they need to prove they can handle the equal accountability and responsibility that comes with it. More than once they’ve said I am “impossible”…Tis a proudly worn title. 😆

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Tarnished says:

    “And if thugs were to accost Mrs. Gamer, I’d likely put my skin in the game, so the no chivalry thing is out.”

    Hmm. I’d argue that defending a loved one is not necessarily chivalrous, but rather just a physical representation of the fact you care about them. In some personal examples that come to mind with my younger siblings or fellow bullied students in middle school, it’s an automatic reaction of protection.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Yoda says:

    More than once they’ve said I am “impossible”

    “Impossibe” a synonym for “logical” it is?

    Liked by 1 person

  20. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn at 3:00am,
    What you had to say kind of sums it up. As a woman, they are going to presume that you are on “Team Woman”, or supporting the herd. This would naturally be in opposititon to men.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Yoda says:

    This would naturally be in opposititon to men.

    It has to be this way not

    Liked by 2 people

  22. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom at 1:59am,
    There is something else you may not have considered. Feminists do their level best to crush “Nice Guys” and What are they after? Relationships.
    I never thought about this until now but, they are trying to do as much damage as they can, both to individuals and the SMP.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Yoda says:

    Feminists do their level best to crush “Nice Guys” and What are they after? Relationships.

    Cruel this would be.
    For what reason they do?

    Like

  24. Yoda says:

    As a woman, they are going to presume that you are on “Team Woman”,

    “Victims unite they should”
    But they are victims not

    Like

  25. Yoda says:

    However, if/when our relationship ends

    Why should this be?

    Like

  26. Yoda says:

    A belief than men remaining bachelors could only happen for so many years, because the masculine need for sex would win out every time

    Assumption being put to the test it is.
    Women the answer they might not like.

    Like

  27. jf13 says:

    re: “MGTOW is the best path towards true equality.”

    Yes, but why would one wish to optimize the path to TrueEquality™?

    Like

  28. jf13 says:

    re: “MGTOW include the men I as a woman would admire most.”

    Universally the reason men become MGTOW is because women refuse to behave properly around them. Hence it cannot be the case that most, if any women, really want to behave properly to MGTOW, since the men are being rational in choosing MGTOW.

    Like

  29. jf13 says:

    re: “an older MGTOW (who still involves himself with females)”

    Women want a nonMGTOW MGTOW. Same as fried ice, same as the good bad boy, same as the servile dominant dude, etc.

    Like

  30. jf13 says:

    Don’t you hate it when you realize your zipper has been down for two hours at work already?

    Liked by 1 person

  31. jf13 says:

    Poaeidon defines MGTOW for women who don’t wish to comprehend.
    https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/mgtow-and-women/comment-page-1/#comment-18367

    Like

  32. Yoda says:

    Don’t you hate it when you realize your zipper has been down for two hours at work already?

    Pays to advertise it does?

    Like

  33. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Free Northerner had a great guest post about demographic winter.
    http://freenortherner.com/2015/04/12/guest-post-from-europa-demographic-figures/
    I have been watching this. It comes in two hour long parts.

    I get the feeling that all of this is related and it predates modern feminism.

    Like

  34. Yoda says:

    Many women (not all) waste a significant amount of time on playing the SMP, when they could be doing what other women and many (not all) men are doing instead. Namely, improving themselves, learning to handle adult responsibilities, becoming frugal, and gaining life experiences that will make them better people all around.

    Wasted not they do view.
    Fun they did have

    Like

  35. jf13 says:

    Being a cat lady or even *wanting* to be a cat lady, we all should agree, should not be viewed by men as a woman’s techique intended to make her be viewed as better partner material. Similarly I hope we can all agree that being a mghow or even *wanting* to be a mghow, we all should agree, should not be viewed by women as a man’s techique intended to make him be viewed as better partner material.

    Liked by 1 person

  36. jf13 says:

    re: “For what reason they do?”

    Because they don’t want normal relationships (hetero, fertile, etc) and they don’t want anyone else to either.

    Like

  37. jf13 says:

    re: bad seed

    Is thuggery inheritable? Or is it mostly environment? Nerdity certainly seems inheritable.

    Like

  38. jf13 says:

    The reason men go their own way is because they see that the ONLY effective means to the end of getting women to behave properly are improper means.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
    The principle here is that “wanting no relationships” CANNOT be construed as a way to achieve a relationship.

    Like

  39. jf13 says:

    I’ll take the next step further. MGTOW as a movement cannot be viewed as a way to make women behave more properly eventually sometime in the future.

    Like

  40. jf13 says:

    re: “For what reason they do?”

    The deeper reason as to why women go out of their way to make reproductivey things difficult for men is sexual conflict, which underlies the Feminine Imperative, which underlies hypergamy.

    Like

  41. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf13

    Don’t you hate it when you realize your zipper has been down for two hours at work already?

    Hard to keep the Tiger caged. Even my nun daughter laughed at that one.

    Liked by 1 person

  42. Yoda says:

    sexual conflict

    Explain you should.

    Like

  43. jf13 says:

    It makes theoretical rational sense for a man to want sex with “a woman who is only a slut for me”. The practical difficulty of course is that there are so few such women in reality. But it does not make even theoretical rational sense for a woman to want a relationship “a man who wants no relationships with women”, and the practical aspect is totally impossible.

    Like

  44. theasdgamer says:

    Hmm. I’d argue that defending a loved one is not necessarily chivalrous, but rather just a physical representation of the fact you care about them.

    Yeah, that’s why women leave bed at 2 a.m. and grab a gun when they hear a noise downstairs–to protect the men they love. Ain’t happenin’.

    Like

  45. SFC Ton says:

    I am in the nature over nurture group but I have read the egg heads estimate up to 80% of our personalities are an inheritance.

    Not sure how that works with the whole regression to the mean thing operating

    Like

  46. thedeti says:

    I think MGTOW could be as Poseidon describes it: Self preservation; and personal peace being more important than seeking sex. I suppose it could be as jf13 identified, that MGTOW is a way to make women behave properly. But I think that MGTOW can’t be used to force proper behavior.

    In my view, MGTOW is really just a rational response to conditions-on-the-ground reality. I know a lot of men don’t want to hear this, but most men are not attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman. And by “attractive” I mean they don’t inspire sexual arousal. They don’t inspire tingles. Most women don’t have the character to make a commitment and stick with it no matter what. And it’s not a man’s character or strength or will or resolve that will attract and keep a woman. What does attract and keep a woman is his alpha characteristics — his confidence, dominance, status, looks and money, in roughly that order. And most men just don’t have enough of those things to keep a woman long term. Or if they have enough of those things, they aren’t enough for a long enough period of time and they at some point cease being enough.

    These are current conditions on the ground. This is current reality for most men.

    Liked by 4 people

  47. thedeti says:

    I know I sound like a broken record, but — the reason why most marriages are failing nowadays is because for whatever reason, wife has lost sexual attraction for husband, or it was never there in the first place. Wife just doesn’t want to have sex with husband.

    And she now has the legal, social and cultural means to activate that lack of attraction in a number of ways. Divorce and keep income stream. Divorce and remarry. Divorce and replace man with string of men in serial monogamous relationships/hookups. Remain in sexless marriage and have sexual affairs with varying degrees of openness.

    Liked by 2 people

  48. jf13 says:

    Sexual conflict encompasses the notion that the sexes merely have *different* mating strategies and that the practical resolution of the differences is *always* conflict. Cooperative aspects only impact shared goals, not differences. But empirically the differences are major and vast.

    More fundamentally, the gender that must overcome the other gender’s resistance to mating is empirically the male gender, so sexual conflict itself *always* serves the female mating strategy. This female strategy, basically, is to make reproduction more difficult for males.

    Intralocus sexual conflict is the way that females get to incorporate the variability of males, basically using males as guinea pigs, or canaries in the coal mine of evolution.

    Like

  49. Tarnished says:

    Yoda @ 2:20
    “Why should this be?”

    Why shouldn’t it be? Everything ends eventually. People move away, find new partners, get better jobs across the country, or even (Gods forbid) die. I’m not saying I *want* our arrangement to end…quite the contrary. But it will at some point. For now, I am simply grateful to have found someone with the patience he had, just as he’s grateful to have a sexual friend in me. I shall always cherish the memories we make, and pray that he does too.

    Like

  50. jf13 says:

    If more women were more aware of their inherently paradoxical *personal* demands for fried ice, then conceivably more women would be more sympathetic to cooperating with men’s sexual strategy. Hence, a huge part of the FI is to ensure each woman’s brain is twisted enough to think she is different, in exactly this way, from other women.

    Like

  51. Yoda says:

    most men are not attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman

    Hypergamy happens it does.
    Especially when society does unleash.

    Like

  52. jf13 says:

    re: canaries

    If men start keeling over in their cages, the smart thing for women would be to backtrack as rapidly as possible. But if too many canaries die, there is nowhere to backtrack to.

    Like

  53. Yoda says:

    Don’t you hate it when you realize your zipper has been down for two hours at work already?

    Oblong rock involved it was?
    Moe comment he should.

    Like

  54. thedeti says:

    “If more women were more aware of their inherently paradoxical *personal* demands for fried ice, then conceivably more women would be more sympathetic to cooperating with men’s sexual strategy”

    I kind of doubt it, because it doesn’t line up with my experience. The demands for fried ice don’t end because of the woman’s own self- perception that she’s being unreasonable. They end because she is forced to end them. They end because she realizes she has no other choice. They end because she is forced into a choice of: Marriage to this “less than” man, or no marriage at all. Continued marriage to this man, or ruinous divorce. Treatment of your man which he finds acceptable, or ruinous divorce.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. Yoda says:

    I know I sound like a broken record,

    Truth truth it is.

    Like

  56. Yoda says:

    Continued marriage to this man, or ruinous divorce.

    Ruinous to who it would be?

    Like

  57. jf13 says:

    Male sexual strategy:
    1. Mate with female.
    2. Mate with first female, and mate with second female.
    3. Mate with first two females, and mate with third female.
    4. Etc.
    I think the key concept is “et cetera”.

    Like

  58. jf13 says:

    @deti re: “I kind of doubt it”

    Well yeah, me too. But it’s conceivable.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. Yoda says:

    Marriage to this “less than” man

    But “less than” is he?
    Or hypergamy talking that is?

    Like

  60. thedeti says:

    To follow up on what I said earlier regarding most men aren’t sufficiently attractive to get and keep a woman’s interest:

    The answer for most men isn’t going to be “well, just do things to get more attractive”. Because, first, most men can improve themselves one SMV point, maybe two. Most men are not going to go from SMV 5 to SMV 9, unless he wins the lottery or invents some fantastic thing and becomes an eight figure millionaire. Even Mark Zuckerberg isn’t SMV 9.

    A man going from an SMV 5 to SMV 6 (which is the usual result) takes a lot of time and effort. And with that he will be able to attract and keep AT BEST an HB 5. So an average guy undertaking self improvement is going to put in all that time and work for an average woman. Hey, it’s great if some men are going to be willing to do this. And some will. Each man has to undertake his own cost-benefit analysis in that regard. Were it I who had to think about this, I’m not sure I’d put in the effort.

    Once he gets there, he has to stay there. To keep a marriage going, a man has to bring value, and then he has to continue bringing that value, without fail, for the life of the relationship. Whatever he is that attracted her, he has to continue being that and doing that, for the entire life of the relationship, if he wants the relationship to continue. If he doesn’t, he will be in grave danger of his wife leaving him. He cannot flag even one bit. He cannot get depressed or sick. He cannot lose his job. He cannot change too much. He cannot have too many “bad days”. He cannot relax and enjoy his relationship. He must perform, and continue performing.

    I can see why that wouldn’t appeal to a lot of men.

    Liked by 4 people

  61. Yoda says:

    To keep a marriage going, a man has to bring value, and then he has to continue bringing that value, without fail, for the life of the relationship

    The more Tingles he brings
    the less value required it would be.

    Like

  62. Spawny Get says:

    Re Tarn,

    To be honest Fuzzie, the responses I’d gotten in the past were usually of 2 types;

    1. A belief than men remaining bachelors could only happen for so many years, because the masculine need for sex would win out every time. These women weren’t afraid at all, and quite confident that even if men from age 19-30 were shunning women, that they’d “wise up” as they got older.
    2. An entitled, self-righteous anger. These were the women who, upon hearing that some straight men saw no purpose to opposite sex relationships, immediately used shaming language…calling such men “little boys” or “immature jerks” or even “misogynists”. I thought this was very interesting, in that they had a visceral (and ready made) reaction to the simple idea of potentially being rejected that they immediately spoke as though it had just occurred. If a mere mind experiment of “What if no man wanted to marry you?” created that level of hostility and defensiveness…Well, I’d hate to be the poor guy who ever actually turns their attentions away.

    1) is flat wrong. It gets easier every year. The gaggle of women that you are supposed to want, become less attractive. You see women’s entitlement attitude more and more over the years and it becomes ever more of a turn off. The point of having a woman (breeding and practice) clearly diminishes (her fertility and his desire to have teenagers around when he’s hitting the possibility of retirement). You have more stuff that you’d risk losing in a split. You have less tolerance for bullshit. There are men that want a partner in older age (don’t get me wrong), but the option of MGTOW becomes easier over time.

    2) makes me laugh, hell, I read that last night, but I’m laughing again now. Bring it on…

    Liked by 3 people

  63. Yoda says:

    reaction to the simple idea of potentially being rejected that they immediately spoke as though it had just occurred.If a mere mind experiment of “What if no man wanted to marry you?” created that level of hostility

    Telling this is.

    Liked by 3 people

  64. jf13 says:

    Keeping in mind the female role of deselecting males, if there were many MGTOW then that would necessarily definitely limit a woman’s ability to turn men down.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. jf13 says:

    It’s a fuzzy area of my thinking, but I think the FI is indeed best served by undesirable men striving for reproduction and getting turned down. That is to say, what females are really doing is maximizing the number of nonreproductive males by ensuring that
    1. Undesirable men are horny
    2. Undesirable men are deceived into thinking they have a real chance

    Like

  66. jf13 says:

    MGTOW is a way to agree and amplify the FI to death.

    Like

  67. Tarnished says:

    Jf13,

    I’m unsure if you’re supposed male sexual strategy is true for all. I’ve known a good number (20+) men who say that it’s not that they want continuous strange pussy…there’s diseases and condoms and birth control to consider. Not to mention, she could be a bad lay/”dead fish”.
    However, these same men state that they’d be ridiculously pleased to have a single woman who wants sex as much as he does AND is willing to try new things to keep it spicy in the bedroom. I’ve no doubt that there are guys who desire numerous partners just because…but as my love puts it “Wild pussy beats strange pussy every day of the week.”

    Re: Desiring fried ice
    How many women want an inhumanly perfect mate, rather than a regular but wonderful one?

    Like

  68. jf13 says:

    Does it harm the FI more if one McBadboy stops letting his girlfriends come by and feed him bananas, or if nine McNiceguys stop trying to feed their girlfriends bananas?

    Like

  69. jf13 says:

    re: “true for all”

    If the women in ANY man’s harem all behaved properly, then a harem would be the way to go. The only (nonreligious) reason for ANY man not to have a harem is that two unruly women are twice as bad as one unruly woman.

    Like

  70. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf13

    You keep tryin’, but they ain’t buyin’. I’m a poet, dontcha know it?

    Like

  71. thedeti says:

    “It gets easier every year. The gaggle of women that you are supposed to want, become less attractive. You see women’s entitlement attitude more and more over the years and it becomes ever more of a turn off.”
    ____

    Steel on target. If I am ever single, I will never remarry. My tolerance for relationship melodrama, conflict and bullshit is at an all time low. I’m well into middle age. Though I do like the companionship Mrs. deti provides, I am not sure I would feel the need to replace her should our marriage end. I think I could do it; I’m just not sure I’d want to. I also don’t feel quite the sexual urgency that I used to as a man in my late teens and early 20s. It is still there, and it’s frequent enough. But it is not a primal driving need as it was some 25 years ago.

    It is not that I hate women (I most certainly do not) or want to be a hermit (I don’t). It is just that the costs and time and effort required to get a new relationship going and then maintain it are simply too high relative to the likely benefits I’d realize.

    Liked by 2 people

  72. Moehau Man says:

    “Oblong rock involved it was?
    Moe comment he should.”

    Yes well, in the Northern Hemisphere the oblong rock would only weigh you down.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Moehau Man says:

    Volcanic rock’s magnetic, y’know. Otherwise there’d be no poles (pun) and no life. The planet itself has gender. The unvolcanic moon does not. Moehau Man males are well aware of what the ultimate Aplha really is. That’s why we sometimes use oblong rock for support down there. (wink)
    And, um, no sheila can resist the ultimate Alpha. You foreign jokers ever thought of that?

    Heh heh

    Just watch the rock disappear from them Northern Hemisphere quarries…

    Like

  74. Tarnished says:

    “A harem would be the way to go”

    Really???
    I didn’t realize so many males were fans of casual relationships where both they and their females can just have multiple partners whenever.

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Moehau Man says:

    A bear would invest in quarries right now. So would a bull (wink). Invest in them thar hills.

    Like

  76. Moehau Man says:

    I’ll be surprised if jf 6 13 has nothing to say about that.

    Liked by 1 person

  77. Moehau Man says:

    Heh heh heh

    Aw shucks, old Moe does on occasion manage to coin a pun or three…

    Like

  78. theasdgamer says:

    @ deti

    It is just that the costs and time and effort required to get a new relationship going and then maintain it are simply too high relative to the likely benefits I’d realize.

    Costs are high because of the pedestalization of women. Legal costs–frivorce with cash&prizes, social costs due to the transfer of wealth to single mothers, status cost to men because women as a class have an artificially high status relative to men, etc. The artificially low status of men has raised the cost of maintaining a relationship.

    If you’re going to look for a roommate, why not a man? No emotional maintenance. Hire out housekeeping and bring in women ad hoc for sex.

    Liked by 1 person

  79. Yoda says:

    More Moe we do want.

    Like

  80. jf13 says:

    I see the need to repeat. Betas have been bred to try to be pleasing to women. But the argument that “many males ENJOY servicing females” only proves that the enslavement of the FI is far-reaching.

    Like

  81. jf13 says:

    I am now going to state a new thing. This happens frequently enough without my highlighting it, but this one you will enjoy gasping at in awestruck, er, awestruckness:

    I hypothesize that asexually reproducing species are far less susceptible to intermittent reinforcement than sexual species.

    The reason is that the FI can ONLY work in maximizing the number of nonreproducing males if the males are intermittently reinforced (i.e. do get reproduction, doled out grudgingly and seemingly randomly).

    Like

  82. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Deti at 6:04pm,
    I can imagine Bloom reading your comment and getting all depressed. While she is a straight player, there are a lot of bad actresses out there. I wish that stuff like that could be put under their noses.

    Spawny Get,
    The #1 types are not going to be dissueded. They are going to believe that men will always be slaves to their libido and, therefore, set up to fall
    The #2 types worry me. They’re angry at no one in particular and they will vent their fury on any one.

    Like

  83. jf13 says:

    re: “However, these same men state that they’d be ridiculously pleased to have a single woman who wants sex as much as he does AND is willing to try new things to keep it spicy in the bedroom.”

    Yes, ridiculously pleased. Note that men’s desires do NOT involve fried ice, but women obviously have decided men’s nonparadoxical demands will be no less rarely satisfied than women’s impossible desires.

    Liked by 1 person

  84. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Privateman posted this yesterday. There is always someone out there ready to tell women what they want to hear. No one ever went broke doing that. Forget about the “Wall”.

    https://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2015/04/12/what-does-she-offer/

    Like

  85. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Roosh had business in NYC and stayed there a couple of days. To his surprise he was better received by women there than in in Poland. It could be an anomoly or it could be a change.

    http://www.rooshv.com/4-things-i-observed-from-my-trip-to-new-york-city

    Like

  86. jf13 says:

    re: privateman

    The linked article inidcates that the post-menopausal woman projects her lack of sexual desire onto similar-aged men, but she fails to project her lack of caring and tenderness.

    Liked by 1 person

  87. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    PS. I think that Roosh expected the cold shoulder in New York. While he didn’t connect, he wasn’t shot out of the box.

    Like

  88. jf13 says:

    re: Roosh

    Could the change be due to NYC women recognizing Roosh from manosphere stuff? I.e. any fame is good.

    Like

  89. jf13 says:

    Next earlier privateman
    https://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2015/04/03/a-mans-edge-factor/

    Note that “try to be more like fried ice” is the worst possible advice to men.

    Like

  90. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Jf13,
    To the bone. Seeing that, it leads one to realize that she sees women as tha “superior sex” and men as her servants.
    How deep does this attitude go?
    Ton has said tha h leaves his contemporaries,40+, alone and sees better attitudes from younger women in their twenties. If the sense of entitlement worsens with age, there is little hope for older men.

    Liked by 3 people

  91. jf13 says:

    I’m trying to imagine if I were an 18 yr old woman and had discovered how so very many men will do so very much for me just on the vague hope that they might get a little something (or even just see a little something), and not sucumbing to the temptation to exploit men’s libidos for my own purposes, and not getting better at it and more jaded about it for at least the next ten or dozen years.

    Like

  92. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Jf13,
    In the past, there were social curbs on teasing men that way. To add to that, as sex was so unlikely an outcome, Teasong was humorous but not effective.

    Liked by 2 people

  93. jf13 says:

    @Fuzzie, true about teasing being frowned upon in the past. But clearly since that time, women’s sexual freedom has turned into a license to feel entitled *because* of her being able to exploit sexual attention when younger.

    And no, I don’t think the tables ever turn for men. Feeling “commitment empowered” is baloney, for the same reason that feeling entitled to be a servant is baloney.

    Like

  94. theasdgamer says:

    @ Fuzzie

    If the sense of entitlement worsens with age, there is little hope for older men.

    Lol, just go after younger women. Ignore those approaching menopause and older.

    Like

  95. jf13 says:

    Serial monogamy is the ultimate expression of the FI. Hence, it follows that every attempt to make serial monogamy more attractive to men “You can just dump her after the honeymoon period, right?” is merely serving the FI.

    Like

  96. Tarnished says:

    Jf13 @ 8:09,

    It’s called morality. Some have it, others don’t.

    Liked by 1 person

  97. Tarnished says:

    Fuzzie,

    “sees better attitudes from younger women in their twenties.”

    Better actresses, you mean…

    Liked by 1 person

  98. jf13 says:

    re: morality

    For the nonreligious it is far better to have “social curbs”. Force women to conform through ostracism, and make unregenerate teases into cheap prostitutes.

    Like

  99. @ fuzzie I don’t find what Deti says depressing, I can see why he would feel that way. I am focusing on loving/healing myself at the moment, so dating is the last thing on my mind. I hope that someday I find someone to share my life with, if it is meant to be it will. Better to be alone than to be in a bad situation.

    Liked by 3 people

  100. Tarnished says:

    “Better to be alone than to be in a bad situation.”

    By Jove…I think she’s got it! 😀 🎉🎊🎈🎯

    Liked by 3 people

  101. Tarnished says:

    Jf13,

    I have no idea how your comment at 9:05 correlates to mine at 8:51 at all. I merely said that some women have morals about using feminine wiles to have men do things for them…and others don’t.

    Like

  102. Liz says:

    “Jf13,

    I have no idea how your comment at 9:05 correlates to mine at 8:51 at all.”

    Yeah, that’s gonna happen.

    Like

  103. theasdgamer says:

    Note that “try to be more like fried ice” is the worst possible advice to men.

    “Just be yourself.” “Women like nice guys.” lol Can I somehow offer worse advice than that?

    Liked by 1 person

  104. jf13 says:

    re: “some women have morals”

    And more of them would respond better to social curbs.

    Liked by 1 person

  105. Liz says:

    I think social curbs and moral values kind of work hand in hand. Morals are in large part social conditioning, afterall. Children learn largely by imitation, more than lectures on right and wrong.
    But I don’t think forcing anyone into prostitution is either necessary or desireable.

    Liked by 1 person

  106. Yoda says:

    From above link this is,

    6:21 – Mallon files a response accusing Allison of sexual harassment because she referred to Mallon as “Ms.” when Mallon identifies with the use of “Mx.”

    7:30 – Allison apologizes in an email, saying:

    “In every situation I’ve been in with Elle, Elle has said Elle’s pronouns were “She, Her, Hers,” including on the Ducks F.I.R.S.T website. With that information, I used “Ms.” when addressing Elle.”

    April 8:

    Mallon submits a second grievance saying Allison chose to misgender her.

    She cites the apology email from Allison as evidence saying that:

    “Allison found a place where my pronouns were listed and then chose to misgender me anyway (My pronouns also include xe xem hyr and they them their).”

    Liked by 2 people

  107. jf13 says:

    too-blank verse of too-blank thoughts

    Fried Ice

    I just want an addict, with self control
    Who works out hard every day, and is busy around the house
    And he’ll do what I want all the time without forcing me to reciprocate
    But he has enough backbone to force me to reciprocate
    And he can be really nice to me, whenever he wants to I guess
    Which isn’t very often come to think of it, unless he wants sexy time
    Which is pretty much always, and yet
    I feel like I’m not turning him down as much as I could be
    Because he’s not asking as much as he could be
    But he’s all mine, at least I don’t think he has any other women currently
    And his most recent ex-girlfriend – wooo what a mess!

    Like

  108. jf13 says:

    What are some other suggested methods for social curbing of unregenerate teases? Besides slut shaming etc.

    Like

  109. Liz says:

    “What are some other suggested methods for social curbing of unregenerate teases? Besides slut shaming etc.”

    Social ostracization. And don’t underestimate the power of shame…it’s hugely powerful for herd-minded folk (just about every woman is).

    Liked by 1 person

  110. Poseidon says:

    I see men going their own way as only motivated by self. For men who cannot obtain a woman, then his going his own way is tantamount to giving up on trying to get a woman and diverting his energies elsewhere. To the man who can obtain a woman and opts not to is opting not to for his own reasons, whether it be due to a cost/benefit analysis that the sex just ain’t worth the crap that goes with a relationship, or some other reason.

    I really do not see any men being motivated to go their own way due to teaching women a lesson on inter-gender behavior. If women were to in fact learn to behave more civilly due a perception that men are opting out, then that would be a secondary, unintended consequence of MGTOW. Or a result of intermittent reinforcement.

    I agree that being without a woman gets easier as time passes. With age comes more of an ability to not care what others think. So the lower statusment of not having a woman on my arm has reached nullness.

    Liked by 2 people

  111. Liz says:

    Also zoning laws, and stuff like that. Helps keep the riff raff among the riff raff only.

    Like

  112. jf13 says:

    re: “If women were to in fact learn to behave more civilly due a perception that men are opting out, then that would be a secondary, unintended consequence of MGTOW.”

    Cosign, especially the unintended part. Similarly, herbivores are not trying that way to be cuter to women.

    Like

  113. jf13 says:

    re: tease/slut zoning laws

    Good idea! We could mark the districts with red light icons on Google Maps.

    Like

  114. jf13 says:

    What does one do with all the ostracized unregenerate sluts who were ostracized for having refused to stop being slutty? I’m open to suggestions.

    Like

  115. Poseidon says:

    I’ve read a few indicate that there are differing strains of MGTOW. This made sense to me, as I’ve postulated the possibility of having a girlfriend. Some MGTOW just refuse to marry, or marry again, but are willing to have intimate relationships with women. Some MGTOW choose to be aloof to most everybody and lead lives of mostly solitude, at least that is what I’ve read. So in theory, a woman might be onto something real when she postulates finding a quasi-MGTOW for an intimate relationship.

    I would advise a woman to be careful with this. I imagine some of the most non-caring, narcissistic PUAs can be correctly classified as pump and dump MGTOW. Just out for sex regardless of what he has to say to get it. I’ve read some of the game sites.

    I believe there are many men that only want, or wanted their own mutually monogamous relationship with a woman. Perhaps a thought or two of other women, but only wanted to be in a mutually loyal relationship. I believe the idea that all men would be unfaithful and have multiple sexual partners even while married is an example of the apex fallacy.

    Liked by 4 people

  116. jf13 says:

    It’s certainly not only morals that currently prevent men from going hog wild, acting all thuggy and brutish and sexually dominant towards multiple women. It’s laws. Which makes women revere/respect even more the bad boys that get away with it.

    Like

  117. jf13 says:

    There aren’t strains of MGTOW, just levels or shades. Like PUAs; you certainly could be a mild PUA but that merely means you’re a pale weak level of PUA.

    Like

  118. jf13 says:

    “Given up trying to do what women want” doesn’t come in strains.

    Like

  119. Tarnished says:

    +1 for Poseidon 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  120. jf13 says:

    I’m going to be mgtow, but only deep down where it’s hard to tell. On the surface I’ll appear to want the company of women, but trust in the love of a good woman will enable me to bring my mgtow to the surface.

    Liked by 1 person

  121. Cill says:

    Poseidon “I really do not see any men being motivated to go their own way due to teaching women a lesson on inter-gender behavior”.

    Yes I think the real reason will always be something else. I suppose the most common reason will be trauma – the reason I went my own way. I have subsequently learned why I should continue to go my own way, and it’s nothing to do with trauma, and it’s this: women are not worth it. No-one, and no thing, is worth the effort, the risk, and the sacrifice.

    The maddening thing is NAWALT. Some women, such as Liz, have proved they are worth it, and that’s the only way we can tell who they are. How the f*ck are we to know any other way? Some other bloke has to hang his head over the parapet, and in the unlikely event that he doesn’t get an arrow in the eye or have a miserable marriage or LTR, we will know he has one of the rare good women. Fat lot of good that’s going to do us when she’s already committed.

    Even ONSs are a risk (false rape etc). The only way to approach a more serious commitment, as I see it, is to have a trial period that might lead to FWB at most. It has to be on that understanding. Come hell or high water, the man must keep his head during that period. That’s a big ask, when he’s in the presence of a smoking-hot woman.

    I’m getting closer to FWB, keeping a clear head so far… touch wood.

    Liked by 3 people

  122. Tarnished says:

    Jf13,
    Aw, man. Your sarcasm is dripping all over the place…(Seriously though, everyone here knows that’s not how MGTOW works.)

    Cill,
    You win the internets for the day, sir. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  123. jf13 says:

    I claim this to be on topic in the sense of negative. Every aspect of the linked article is about How Not To Be MGTOW. Naturally, because it is intended to be encouraging to men, almost everything about *women* in it is a lie, especially the part about women willing to set up up with other women for sex.

    But “Let Women Know You Are a Powerful, Virile Man Who Is Interested in Sex. With Them.”
    is surprisingly good advice for the site. If men just boldy go and don’t worry about “being creepy” or being “labeled sexual harassers” or “scare a woman they care about” or being arrested, then you’ll do just fine …
    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-virgins-guide-to-dating-women-fiff/

    Like

  124. Poseidon says:

    @ Cill:

    I totally agree. I read on another blog the suggestion to have your house totally wired for sound and video, especially the bedroom just in case false allegations are made. I actually thought about doing this a few months ago when I considered asking a young lady out.

    I do have a small digital audio recorder that I used for other purposes that has paid off big time. In the past I had to deal with a liar and now have much evidence encrypted on an external hard drive should I ever need it.

    Like

  125. M says:

    OMG This is news to me

    Like

  126. Cill says:

    Thanks Tarn. Pity I didn’t close the italics at one point there though.

    Like

  127. jf13 says:

    re: “This is news to me.”

    I didn’t know Cill touched wood either.

    Liked by 1 person

  128. Cill says:

    Good for you, Poseidon. A man can’t be too careful in this day and age.

    Liked by 1 person

  129. Liz says:


    What does one do with all the ostracized unregenerate sluts who were ostracized for having refused to stop being slutty? I’m open to suggestions.”

    Specialty acts in the carnival? Circus? Crash test dummy? And i didn’t say they couldn’t be prostitutes I said they shouldn’t be forced to…sounds,actually, like a good career field for a tart and I won’t criticize or ostracize if she’s classy and keeps the behavor for the job (aka discretion)

    But as fun as the image of GPS tracking implants with moving red zones might be (maybe we could prohibit them commerce as well! Very mark of the beastie) neither that nor any forced ostracization is necessary. They need to stop being rewarded and celebrated and the behavior would change.

    Like

  130. I think the same could be said for men, you only know they are the real deal after they have been the real deal over time. There are also good actors, not just actresses. Unfortunately…

    Liked by 2 people

  131. jf13 says:

    re: “I think the same could be said for men”

    Or not, depending on what you meant. It is never the case that “I don’t want a man in my life” is an attractive statement to men, because men are rational.

    Like

  132. SFC Ton says:

    No better attitudes. Most have seen fathers brothers etc ground down by divorce and have less of a confrontational attitude. About everything

    Debt and demographics will end feminism at some point

    Liked by 2 people

  133. Tarnished says:

    Cill @ 11:22
    +
    Poseidon @ 11:42
    +
    Bloom @ 11:49
    =
    People suck.

    Conclusion:
    Bears are better than people.

    Liked by 2 people

  134. SFC Ton says:

    See my reply about tazers?

    AWALT; perhaps not to all men at all.times but yes they are like that.

    Like

  135. Cill says:

    Bloom, I know what you mean.

    But with all the goodwill in the world, you don’t stand to lose as much should a man decide to trade you in after the knot is tied. A man’s biggest loss is his children. If a woman rigged DV against me to remove me from the lives of my children I would not go down quietly. There would be trouble. At this point of my life I can’t see any way I could ever take the risk of having children. Women can proceed with the confidence that they won’t be separated from their children.

    To finish on a positive note, Be Bloom.
    …and Mighty forces will come to your aid, Goethe said.

    Liked by 1 person

  136. Cill says:

    Spawny, perfect. Thanks, me old mate.

    Liked by 2 people

  137. Yoda says:

    New post there would be

    Liked by 1 person

  138. Spawny Get says:

    I did, Ton. Not that they’re legal here for us plebs, but good to know.

    Liked by 1 person

  139. SFC Ton says:

    Cil.men keep.their wits. Smoking hot babe, ambushes, car trouble… it’s all the same and men keep their shit together when the heat is on

    Roosh doing better in NYC then Poland? I can see it. The Poles I have dealt with are not down with dating outside their race

    Like

  140. SFC Ton says:

    Cool.just wanted you to.understand how the tazer continues to be a threat

    Once again I have no idea if that’s what went down. Just trying to explain how things could be and all

    Liked by 1 person

  141. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    M comes with Molly’s full endorsement. To add to that, from what you have said, she is sweet on you.
    That sounds like a good place to start. In the meanwhile, watch nother movie together.

    Liked by 1 person

  142. Tarnished says:

    “It is never the case that “I don’t want a man in my life” is an attractive statement to men…”

    No shit.
    A man saying “I don’t want a woman in my life” doesn’t get most women hot, either…typically they will get pissed or deem said man as highly immature. (See my comments at the beginning of the thread.)

    Like

  143. Cill says:

    Ton, I am keeping my wits. By “touch wood” I mean I was tapping on my head.

    Liked by 1 person

  144. Tarnished says:

    Fuzzie,

    Should the movie involve horses?

    Like

  145. Tarnished says:

    “By “touch wood” I mean I was tapping on my head.”

    Which one? 😈

    Lol, sorry. Could not resist. You really just lobbed that one right over the plate.

    Liked by 3 people

  146. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    “Bears are better than people.”
    Not really. It’s just that we’re always thinking about food. Our needs are simpler.

    Liked by 1 person

  147. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    Those two may have exhausted all the good horse movies by now.
    Try this?

    Liked by 2 people

  148. Tarnished says:

    Every single time someone recommends a “movie with horses”, this pops into my head. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  149. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tarn,
    I had completely forgotten that they had done George of the Jungle with people.
    “Watch out for that tree!”

    Like

  150. M says:

    “I’m getting closer to FWB”
    I’m on Cloud Nine!

    Thank you Fuzzie! 🙂 ” she is sweet on you” 🙂
    Big bear hug

    Like

  151. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Once again, the bear is blushing!

    Like

  152. @ cill I respectfully disagree that women have less to lose if things don’t work out. It is a reality I live every day. Nobody “wins.”

    Like

  153. Also, if I may so humbly assume, I bet Liz’s husband didnt “just get lucky.” I bet he has done things to make it work as much as Liz has. Liz? Yes? Mike steps up to the plate, too?

    Like

  154. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    That Mike, he brings home the bonito!

    Liked by 1 person

  155. jf13 says:

    re: “A man saying “I don’t want a woman in my life” doesn’t get most women hot, either”

    You’d be surprised, then. Women keep having this difficulty regarding forbidden fruit, since, like the Beginning.

    Like

  156. Farm Boy says:

    Once again, the bear is blushing!

    How would we know? It happens under all of that fur.

    Liked by 1 person

  157. Poseidon says:

    jf13:

    I agree. If a hot man says he is not interested in having a woman in his life, then the hot and not so hot women will want to be the one who can get him to want them. Kinda like a validation and/or competition thing. Also the reality of obtaining what is not obtainable as you said.

    Like

  158. Tarnished says:

    “Also the reality of obtaining what is not obtainable…”

    But if it’s truly not obtainable, then it doesn’t matter. Neither she, nor any other woman, has a snowball’s chance in hell of obtaining his affections. Which is as it should be…if he’s a MGTOW who doesn’t want female companionship then he can’t be forced to accept it. Likewise, if he’s a MGTOW who does enjoy some weekly female companionship then he should be free to partake of it without being pressured for more commitment.

    Like

  159. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    I do have a lot of fun being a bear.
    I’ll bet that Yoda has fun being small and green.

    Like

  160. Farm Boy says:

    I’ll bet that Yoda has fun being small and green.

    I’ll bet that Yoda has fun being small and verde.

    Liked by 1 person

  161. Also, just to clarify, I am not trying to say any who tried and it still did not work did not try enough, I am saying it takes two willing partners to make it truly work. And luck.

    And M, not to discourage you but know what you are agreeing to, no kids, no marriage, ever. If you are hoping that will change with time as long as you play along, you play a risky game. If you are ok with it, truly ok with it, then who am I to say…. Just saying few women can truly do this long term. (Remember tarn identifies as a male.) and tarn identifying as male is not here or there, just saying if you identify as female results may vary…

    Liked by 2 people

  162. Yoda says:

    I am saying it takes two willing partners to make it truly work. And luck.

    And good character important it would be.

    Liked by 3 people

  163. Cill says:

    Bloom said “I bet he has done things to make it work as much as Liz has.”

    This is a “given”. In any successful relationship, both partners have to work at it.

    Liked by 1 person

  164. Poseidon says:

    @ Tarn:

    The term, “ambivalence” comes to mind. I believe we imperfect humans experience ambivalence frequently in a variety of lifely arenas.

    I am quite verbal about not getting into another relationship, but at the same time I do crave the positive aspects of being in an intimate relationship with a woman. But I am so picky and fearful that the probability of me actually finding what I want, and her wanting a 50 year old (although I am truly extremely attractive. i shit you not) is very remote.

    I agree with Cil that so many women are so jaded, so hurtful, so selfish, so not seemingly able to feel true empathy for men, so userous. Cil didn’t say all of that……

    Perhaps a Stepford Wife? Perhaps a Cylon wife? Grace Park was very yummy looking in Battlestar Galactica. So was the Japanese Cylon; I think her name was Boomer. (haha boom)

    As I’ve shared, I have my son, so my life has plenty of meaning and fulfillment. But the MGHOW deal is less than ideal for a human. It is a defensive way to live.

    Back to your comment. If a man is tagging himself as MGHOW, perhaps inside he does desire intimacy with a lady, but adopted MGHOW as a sorta shield. Perhaps this is so for some and not all?

    Again, the risk/reward outlook is not favorable regarding the rolling of this dice. The pain of a bad relationship is immense. But for me I won’t have any other children. The divorcing when children are involved has gotta be the worst part of any man’s divorce. I will never have to face that again. And I have my son’s love and respect and strong relationship that cannot be revoked at this point.

    Liked by 2 people

  165. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    I don’t think Cill is the type to take advantage of a girl’s affections. He has ben witness to some awful stuff. In the meanwhile,if they watch lots of movies yogether, I’ll hope for the best.

    Liked by 3 people

  166. @ fuzzie I did not mean to imply cill is untrue… Please don’t misunderstand. I am just a half a world away peanut gallery. I just have seen many friends “not believe” a guy saying “no marriage, no kids” and then get hurt when that’s what exactly happens.

    Liked by 2 people

  167. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    I could be my age but, I am hesitant to make stements like that. I know that I could feel differently about it tomorrow.

    Liked by 1 person

  168. Tarnished says:

    Bloom’s point at 3:47 should not be taken lightly, imo. There may (or may not) come a time when M needs to decide if she can be truly, honestly happy as an unmarried, childless woman for all her days. The majority would say no, and most would never entertain the possibility…There’s a reason women/couples will spend tens of thousands of dollars in the attempt to conceive or adopt. M should know that nobody here (I hope) would shame her for deciding kids are too important to not have in her life. However, I would highly recommend that she go the FwB route with Cill for at least a few months. Our Cill is a good man, and the experiences they could have together would likely be worth it. Just an outsiders opinion…

    Poseidon,
    Perhaps I’m missing something, but why should the fact that you’re 50 dissuade anyone from being with you? I’ll be 31 in a few months, but my FwB is 15 years older than myself. Unless you fear being set upon by 17 year old high schoolers, I don’t know that you have much to worry about.

    Then again, I don’t know your life experiences. I suppose that some women may turn down a man due to his age alone.

    Like

  169. Poseidon says:

    @ Tarn:

    I’m kinda a white knight and cannot/willnot lose that aspect of myself. If me at 51 (this month) begin a relationship with a 24 year old, then in 10 years I will be 61 and she will be 34. Wouldn’t I be doing her a great disservice if she were to “fall in love” with me when she could have fallen in love with a man much closer to her age? Would that be ultra selfish of me? Or would it just be her fault for getting involved with an older man at the inception?

    If this did occur, it would be hilarious observing the faces of women about my age observing me and my young lady together. They would have so much fun hating me…….

    Liked by 1 person

  170. Poseidon says:

    “Then again, I don’t know your life experiences. I suppose that some women may turn down a man due to his age alone.”

    I believe most women would turn down a man 15 years or more their senior.

    Like

  171. Poseidon says:

    “I am just a half a world away peanut gallery.”

    Chocolate covered peanuts?

    Liked by 1 person

  172. jf12 says:

    I hope I am not viewed as contradicting myself when I say that each of the three women I asked to marry me basically started out our first dates by explaining the reason she turned me down at first was not because of me, just because “I don’t want a man in my life”. I’m not sure I would have pursued any of them if they had not said that – as an excuse. I would have preferred not being turned down. I guess.

    I feel like I ought to puff slowly on a pipe and gaze off into mountainous distances to sort out what I ought to feel, but there ain’t none of that here.

    Liked by 3 people

  173. Poseidon says:

    “I feel like I ought to puff slowly on a pipe and gaze off into mountainous distances to sort out what I ought to feel, but there ain’t none of that here.”

    Maybe relocate to Colorado. There’s plenty of smoke there……

    Liked by 2 people

  174. Tarnished says:

    Wow…I’m really very sorry and sympathetic to hear that from you, jf12. We don’t usually get along overly well, but I send you a virtual hug and consoling pat on the back.

    “Wouldn’t I be doing her a great disservice if she were to “fall in love” with me when she could have fallen in love with a man much closer to her age?”

    No. Reciprocated love can never be a disservice. Even if your time together is theoretically shorter due to age differences, each of you was still a candle in the dark to the other. Why shun the moon just because it’s not as bright as the sun?

    Liked by 3 people

  175. Poseidon says:

    “Why shun the moon”

    So would it be ok to ask her to moon me on the first date?

    Liked by 1 person

  176. Tarnished says:

    Sure.
    It’s only kinky the first time… 😉

    But enough! I am to bed, thou ruffians and scaliwags of the night! Gaze upon mine most favored of the Bard’s sonnets, whilst I attempt to visit Morpheous in his realms.

    Sonnet 138
    When my love swears that she is made of truth
    I do believe her, though I know she lies,
    That she might think me some untutor’d youth,
    Unlearned in the world’s false subtleties.
    Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
    Although she knows my days are past the best,
    Simply I credit her false speaking tongue:
    On both sides thus is simple truth suppress’d.
    But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
    And wherefore say not I that I am old?
    O, love’s best habit is in seeming trust,
    And age in love loves not to have years told:
    Therefore I lie with her and she with me,
    And in our faults by lies we flatter’d be.

    Liked by 1 person

  177. Poseidon says:

    It’s been years since I read any Shakespeare. Writing class about 30 years ago.

    Like

  178. Cill says:

    Shakespeare

    Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
    You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
    Till you have drench’d our steeples, drown’d the cocks! 5
    You sulphurous and thought-executing fires,
    Vaunt-couriers to oak-cleaving thunderbolts,
    Singe my white head! And thou, all-shaking thunder,
    Strike flat the thick rotundity o’ the world!
    Crack nature’s moulds, all germens spill at once 10
    That make ingrateful man!

    Liked by 1 person

  179. SFC Ton says:

    Well Poseidon I am 45 & ugly and have no problems finding women who want to be with me lomg term (or so they claim)

    Most of those, who were younger, were willing to forego formal marriage. Again because they have seen male family members go through the grind. I think younger women understand there is no permanence in marriage vows.

    It did take some time to establish a poly house but not as long as one would think and went quickly once Girl#1 entered a more permanent position.

    Age difference; my little brother died at 32 from a massive heart attack. He ate well, was under weight and in peak physical condition and he died walking into his house. I am alive despite being shot in the chest and legs, blown up 7 times (that I can recall off the top of my head) falling off a cliff, two helicopter crashes, dislocating my hip twice, set on fire once, stabbed….The Grim Reaper shows up when he shows up and that 24 year old has no guarantees her 24 year old husband will see year #25.

    My sister in law has said many times that she would have chosen 10 years with my little brother over 20 years with anyone else. Point being, the math does not add up the way you laid it down

    It also side steps the advantages older men bring to younger girls; generally they are a balm to the old man’s soul

    Life is but walking shadows,
    a poor player that frets and struts his hour upon the stage,
    full of sound and furry, signifying nothing.

    I read all of Billy’s scratchings between two deployments. The sonnets suck.

    Like

  180. Liz says:

    “I’m kinda a white knight and cannot/willnot lose that aspect of myself. If me at 51 (this month) begin a relationship with a 24 year old, then in 10 years I will be 61 and she will be 34.”

    My parents were 20 years apart. It wasn’t a problem until the very end…he died at 90, but he’d had a stroke six years prior. Sickness and death are something we all eventually go through, though. My husband and I are too close to each other’s ages (IMO). It’s true, I am glad NOW that we probably have more time together, because he is younger than I wanted way back in the day…but I didn’t think about that at the time. Right now, at 45, I’d have dated him in my early 20s (but I don’t know what we’d have in common, I think that girl would annoy him quite a bit, candidly).

    Liked by 1 person

  181. Spawny Get says:

    “I am alive despite being shot in the chest and legs, blown up 7 times (that I can recall off the top of my head) falling off a cliff, two helicopter crashes, dislocating my hip twice, set on fire once, stabbed….”

    Sounds like a week to remember

    Like

  182. theasdgamer says:

    Had an “Oh, fakk!” moment last night. My married dancing buddy showed up unexpectedly at a dance lesson. With her husband. She was with him exclusively until he sat out the lesson, then she rotated. We practiced a couple of times and she and I danced some extended patterns once. She likes my beard. She didn’t ask where I’d been…probably already knew. Got a shot of oxytocin. P The bonding seems to be weaker, but it’s easy to be fooled with this stuff.

    Like

  183. jf13 says:

    re: sympathy

    It’s ok, but thanks. I had gratefully, albeit stupidly in hindsight, taken it as a real compliment, btw, that these picky women “allowed” me in their lives, and in their bodies (the ones I married). Again, stupidly, I used their “I don’t want a man in my life” as an opportunity to say “Great! Then I would be perfect for you!”

    Like

  184. theasdgamer says:

    I should add, for the young men to learn from, that my married dancing buddy (MDB) apologized for her husband’s sitting out–that he didn’t have as much experience dancing as the rest of us. Do you see how pathetic that makes him look? 1. He didn’t finish the intermediate lesson. Makes him look weak. My inexperience/inability dancing never stopped me from trying to finish an intermediate lesson. 2. He wouldn’t rotate partners. No abundance. Neediness. Oneitis. 3. MDB felt like she had to apologize for her husband. I doubt that she told her other partners this–will check with her next time I see her. I suspect that MDB told me to upqualify me as well as to disqualify her husband. Another IOI.

    Like

  185. Poseidon says:

    @ SFC Ton:

    “Well Poseidon I am 45 & ugly and have no problems finding women who want to be with me lomg term (or so they claim)”

    ” I am alive despite being shot in the chest and legs, blown up 7 times (that I can recall off the top of my head) falling off a cliff, two helicopter crashes, dislocating my hip twice, set on fire once, stabbed…”

    “I read all of Billy’s scratchings between two deployments.”

    Sounds like quite an Alpha resume. I don’t want to come across as overtly flippant, but you are an inspiration; an Alpha of Alpha of sorts.

    Like

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