Do You Believe Your Lying Eyes?


Men see things every day.  They compare notes with their friends, relatives and acquaintances.  These friends, relatives and acquaintances also have friends, relatives and acquaintances; all spreading out like a spider web.  Knowledge is spread by these means every day.  But often, this knowledge is at odds with what they are told by the authorities and media.  What gives?

What does one believe?  The first thing to do is to check to see who has an agenda; one where it might be profitable (financially and otherwise) to if not outright lie, to massage the truth.  Do your friends and relatives have an agenda with respect to you?  Do the other groups?

Of course, “common sense” knowledge can be (and often is) incorrect.  But in such cases, it often can be, and is explained completely why it is incorrect.  Does this usually happen when what you see is in conflict with what you are told?  What might you conclude from this?

One only needs to visit a place like Dalrock’s to see this in action.  He has a penchant for finding preachers who pitch baby mama’s as good catches for young men.  And ones that suggest that the baby mama’s are sweet and innocent and bear no responsibility for their predicament.  And feminists who preach all sorts of BS which will invariably lead to misery for all involved.

As one can see, one does not need elaborate conspiracy theories to see this in action.  Perhaps commenters can suggest other areas where on the ground reality differs from what authorities say.

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Posted in FarmBoy, Feminism
294 comments on “Do You Believe Your Lying Eyes?
  1. Farm Boy says:

    Jf12 could see all today. He not only predicted the topic, but the picture (Silverthorne, Colorado)

    Like

  2. Cill says:

    Farm Boy, I’ve been distracted lately. “Privatized Gains / Socialized Losses” was such a good topic but I as good as missed it. Here’s another post that I’d really like to take some time to comment on, but I’m still pretty much tied up with post-storm stuff at my end.

    Like

  3. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    The internet has been a Godsend to men on these issues. Untill I found this little corner, I thought I was alone in feeling this way. I kept my thoughts to myself because they’re not feminist friendly. For men to have a chance to talk among themselves allows us to find reason for what was unexplainable.
    Feminism has done one heck of a con job on our society. Now that we know, let’s hope that there is time to fix it.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Farm Boy says:

    The internet has been a Godsend to men on these issues.

    This place is politically incorrect. So it would never see the light of day any place else.

    One cannot expect each individual man to figure this all out. Perhaps that was what the establishment media / feminists were counting on. But when fellas put their heads together…

    Like

  5. Farm Boy says:

    “Privatized Gains / Socialized Losses” was such a good topic but I as good as missed it.

    Thank you. That post isn’t going anywhere. Neither is this one.

    Like

  6. Farm Boy says:

    Cill,

    I have tended livestock in my day. I have also cleaned up after storms. That is lots of work.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    It’s not that we’re politically incorrect, it’s that we are, for the most part, correct and that is politically threatening. For fushing this nonsense, they should feel threatened. They have done a lot of damagee.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Spawny Get says:

    legally speaking this is off topic, but Get your cool images rush here

    Like

  9. Spawny Get says:

    Interesting Murder is Ok, but Threatening Rape or Calling a Lady a ”Quim” is Simply Going Too Far.

    Anyway, I want to talk about Loki. I noticed he has some normal fans, and some “apologists”. Normal fans and fangirls think he’s cool as he is, bad and sympathetic. But there are also people who can’t seem to handle the fact that he’s bad, and try to make up excuses for him. That could be “Thor and Odin killed people too”. Or it could be “He was mind-controlled the whole Avengers movie” (I hate that one the most, because it robs a cool character of their whole character and agency). I even remember reading that screenwriters themselves are mean to Loki, because he’s the nerd among the jocks, looks vaguely Jewish compared to his Aryan-looking friends, defies gender norms by using magic instead of brawn. Thus the movie is racist, sexist, and teaches us that nerds are evil.

    Emma / Nataliya correctly identifies the Hamsterbatics in action. The same Hamsterbatics seen with convicts getting married to women convinced of their goodness…

    Like

  10. Spawny Get says:

    My comment from Emma’s / Nataliya’s blog (worth a read in its entirety and commenting there)

    Nice analysis. Hamsterbatics in full show. Is this the female mirror of men that go chubby chasing? Where the logic might be that by ‘choosing’ to chase the truly obese, a guy is removing a lot of competition for the woman he ‘wants’? It’s kind of claiming that he is able to get the woman he wants, so he’s winning. But…he’s only winning because he has no competition, because he chose women that nobody else wants.

    as a side note that doesn’t affect your post’s thrust

    ‘Quim’ is not a word I’ve heard much, but my reaction to the word isn’t that it’s on a par with ‘cnut’, it’s more like ‘fanny’ or ‘pussy’. You’d (more usually) use it talk about the anatomical feature, not the woman. It’s not in the best possible taste, but it’s not hard core insulting either.

    Your dictionary definition might vary. And the usage in the quote IS that he’s calling the woman something, but more like a mewling pussy IMHO (that is an image, and it works for the sounds a kitten makes).

    But as to the harshness? that’s the word from my parts of the wild streets of England, yo

    Like

  11. Spawny Get says:

    Also of relevance Are Seasoned MGTOW Bored With the Red Pill?

    Among seasoned MGTOW the facts of life are now well known. After being one of the great mysteries of the universe, female psychology and behavior is now depressingly easy to read and understand. The responsive strategies now familiar. The hidden forces that control men in their need for woman are now (again) familiar – Mangina and White Knight behavior, male-mother need, female validation, woman and family providing purpose and meaning in life, and so on. The dangers of the legal system, pressures of social norms etc. There is a lot to it, but in the end the basic mechanics of the Matrix are a finite study. Now What?

    There are posts on MGTOW video forums that lament that the content is familiar and”boring”. “How many times do we have to go over …” “Why do we have to keep talking about …?”

    Like

  12. Liz says:

    I haven’t read that last one linked to yet, Swithy, but I’ve noticed that neophyte MGTOWers often come across as pretty monomaniacal. When I started out in the sphere, it seems essentially impossible to discuss anything with them…it wasn’t a discussion, just “MGTOW will change that!” “So what? MGTOW!” “foot fungus? Try MGTOW!” “Clogged toilets? MGTOW will fix that right up!”

    It kind of influenced my opinion of the whole MGTOW movement, at first (which has changed now that I know more, and have conversed with well-established MGTOWers).

    Liked by 2 people

  13. jf12 says:

    re: female mirror

    Loki’s fangirls are fans because he’s bad. Evil. Definitely NOT because of his supposed nerdiness. In fact, the reason they bring in irrelevancies like “he’s got feminine eyes” or other such nonsense is to distract and deflect. It’s EXACTLY the same reason women believe that bad boys have a heart of gold way down deep where it’s hard to tell: women don’t want to be confronted by the facts revealed by their actual choices, so they PRETEND bad boys are really nice, and nice guys are really mean.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Liz says:

    You’re essentially right above, jf12. The only point you fail at is the fact that emotional (sometimes physical) vulnerabilities are written into the character for plot development purposes. Your basic, one-dimensional ‘baddy’ isn’t interesting or sexy at all. It’s the contrast people like. Magnito has a big following, too, for this reason (men like him too…Loki is just kind of a douche I’m not sure why anyone would be impressed).

    Like

  15. jf12 says:

    re: “Mangina and White Knight behavior, male-mother need, female validation, woman and family providing purpose and meaning in life, and so on.”

    I’ve wurked relly hard on ditching the first two. How’m I doin?

    I’m not sure how to deal with mother need. Basically, an older woman on whose shoulder I could cry sometimes. Suckling optional. I suppose generically a man is supposed to wall off this need the same way the umbilical wound scars over.

    Female validation is different since it affects so much of me. The walling-off in my brain would have to be fractal. In my mind, the audience to whom I play is female, invariably. Probably, to the point of certainty, this is due to my suddenly becoming ignored by my girl playmates right at puberty. Especially after me having been such a general favorite of girls prior to the girls’ puberty (stories there are, yodaishly). Since that was such a very done deal, again, I can’t conceive of any way for *me* to do anything about it that would help *me* with women. And I think women benefit enormously from my need for validation (see, e.g. civilization, the construction thereof)
    http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

    I’m pretty sure woman and family will continue to provide purpose and meaning, meaning my purpose is to provide for them. Also counting as family those others needing me to provide for them, such as employees, students, partners, etc.

    And so on. I think this could be where the action is. What are some of these other so on’s that control men?

    Like

  16. Cill says:

    Bad boys are boring.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. jf12 says:

    Ah, so. Women like Loki because he’s so vulnerable. He’s so easy to make cry, etc. It’s the acuumulation of so many weaknesses that women like. Not.

    If instead, you say “No! It’s just having SOME vulnerability, not so MUCH!” then we should discuss an evil dude with just one vulnerability like Dr. Doom. Prescind the fact that he appears old and ugly. Secretly he’s got a potion of youth keeping him dewy-fresh, and secretly down deep where it’s hard to tell he’s actually gorgeous. So, what about Dr. Doom is sexy, prescinding the fact that you will say he’s overall not sexy. What ABOUT him IS sexy?

    Like

  18. Liz says:

    A good example of ‘one dimensionality’, I think, is Anakin.
    Obviously this actor could not act…but the real problem wasn’t that. And he was chosen for his good looks, so the problem wasn’t his looks either. He came across as one-dimensional, even with his ‘sympathetic’ history. When he was bad, he was simply all-bad, and it wasn’t understandable.

    On paper, he should have been the ultimate chick-magnet, with his background, “power” capability, and all that. I don’t follow fan-fiction but I’d be willing to bet Groot (even baby Groot) has more fans.

    Like

  19. Liz says:

    Another example might be your posting style, Jf12. It often rubs me wrong because it comes across as so unnecessarily, and inexplicably, condescending

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Yoda says:

    Bad boys are boring.

    True this is.
    Anakin an example he would be.

    Interesting am I.
    See difference?
    Hmmmm?

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Cill says:

    To use the immortal word of Tarn:
    Yup

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Liz says:

    I dont’ know who Mr Doom is…does he have a female following?

    Like

  23. Yoda says:

    Much Force around here there is.
    Liz picked up my vibes she did
    Quick to post she was.
    When 900 years old post quick one can not

    Liked by 2 people

  24. Cill says:

    ” Perhaps commenters can suggest other areas where on the ground reality differs from what authorities say.”
    DV is presented as an exclusively male problem when it’s actually a female problem to about the same extent. The latest U.S.A. data on this should be published this year.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Farm Boy says:

    ” Perhaps commenters can suggest other areas where on the ground reality differs from what authorities say.”

    Perhaps it would be easier to list the places where they agree.

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Yoda says:

    MGTOW a schema for living it is.
    Not an entertainment device it would be.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. Spawny Get says:

    Liz, Dr Doom was in one (both?) of the Fantastic Four films. Played by one of the geezers in that plastic surgery base TV series Nip/Tuck. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0573037/?ref_=tt_cl_t5

    Like

  28. Liz says:

    Ah, thanks Swithy.
    Didn’t see those. 🙂

    Like

  29. Yoda says:

    Perhaps it would be easier to list the places where they agree.

    Difficult this would be.
    Anyone? Bueller?

    Like

  30. Lon Spector says:

    “All men are liars.” They are liars even if they don’t intend to lie.
    They lie deliberately or they lie unintentionally because they were taught to lie.
    Only an esoteric spritual studies is the answer.

    Like

  31. @ Farm Boy, wayt to make a girl feel depressed about her future, thanks! 😉

    Like

  32. Spawny Get says:

    Hey Bloom,
    I insist on no personal attacks, but optimism? that’s another issue entirely. 😉

    Liked by 2 people

  33. yeah, yeah….. If my life keeps going the way it has been, I might give up on optimism myself one of these days! 😉

    This is off topic Spawny but I am just curious about this MTGOW thing, do you not date at all? Or how does that work?

    Like

  34. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “I might give up on optimism myself one of these days!”

    Join us, Red. We have cookies. And all your future surprises will be pleasant.

    The cookies taste like regret and broken promises, though.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Yoda says:

    but I am just curious about this MTGOW thing, do you not date at all?

    Men ignored in their 20s they are.
    They learn to cope with dates not.
    A skill in this they do develop.
    This women do rue.

    Like

  36. Spawny Get says:

    Me?

    Not looking. Won’t chase. Won’t be doing any wooing. Won’t be doing more than paying my own way over the medium term. I don’t need a woman and am sceptical that one would add to my life in nett terms. Because all women are ebul? no, but there’s just not many things that I value they could bring to the table, and none that I need. The modern deal is that the men are the major payers in marriage with minimal benefits (if any).

    I get on with many of those of a female persuasion, I like sex, but really hate unnecessary drama and lying. I cannot stand weak character-ed people that lie about serious issues. I have no time for that whatsoever.

    And the more I hear of the legal progress of the divorce industry / family court the less interested I am in getting into any position where any potential changes will drag me into dealing with such stuff. When they retrospectively:
    a) declare cohabitation of a few years as de-jure marriage for divorce purposes (not the UK AFAIAA yet)?
    b) allow a divorced wife to come after assets gained post divorce? (UK)
    c) make stepfathers responsible for kids of their partner after divorce?
    d) fail to punish women for murder or mutilation of their husbands without even requiring proof!

    fuck that for a game of soldiers. fuck it right up the arse

    IMHO women watching feminists keep pushing for this are helping dig the graves of their future prospects and those of their kids (boys and girls).

    I used my best available judgement (blue pill at the time) to pick a wife (she was mid to late twenties, not a kid). I was divorced because she changed. Whether she was pretending for four years, or just changed? IDK. By the time the divorce was final I would have been able to get a church sanctioned divorce (enough said). By modern standards, I did gangbusters, but it still wounded me deeply at the time. Just not worth it for me.

    I think what it boils down to is that I do not believe that at the end of the day a guy can trust a woman to have his back…she might do it (such women exist, I think some might be here), but you’ll never know if you married/partnered one of them until TSHTF and that is too late. In the mean time every good thing in marriage / cohabitation is strictly on her whim, every bad thing? she’ll be backed by the police and courts regardless of the outrageousness of any lies she chooses to tell. And the women in society? We saw what massed women care of men during that ‘The View’ show where the cunts were all cackling about the guy destroyed by his wife – fuck ’em all to hell.

    Feminists and many women themselves have dug women into an immense credibility chasm with their lies, delusions and hatred of men. But they’ll not stop until everything comes down, even if they wanted to, they don’t know how.

    (hey, where did my good mood go? luckily I wrote the following bit before it soured)

    BUT

    Hey if some gorgeous near-virgin or better nympho insists on a equality based non-cohabitation relationship where time together was by mutual desire with rampant kinky sex…I might consider making her dreams come true*

    Frankly I’m not holding my breath. I’ve asked around if I’m seen as a male ten…the answer was distressingly short of a resounding, unanimous absolutely.

    *subject to her being a sensible sane adult – which kind of contradicts the first part

    Like

  37. Spawny Get says:

    Great post that you linked to Deti. That quote from Animal House cracked me up the first time that I read it. No spoilers here…go read it there.

    Like

  38. jf12 says:

    I also didn’t see the F4 flicks, but I was a natural Mr. Fantastic, of course, although often forced to play Dr. Doom when needed because nobody else would.

    Like

  39. Spawny Get says:

    JF, I’m afraid that all I know of the character was from those films. Wasn’t the second film ruined by the horny bint turning into a bridezilla? Mr Fantastic should have run for the hills.

    Like

  40. Spawny Get says:

    Not just the immigrants

    Sick UK state protecting establishment paedophiles (16Mar15)

    Ex-Met Police on UK state protecting establishment paedophiles (17Mar15)

    Peter Garsden on UK state protecting establishment paedophiles (17Mar15)

    Like

  41. Spawny Get says:

    from a comment yesterday

    “Blimey, serious accusations. I’d heard the name Miranda used, but not why.”

    Which ties it all together, allegedly

    Like

  42. Spawny Get says:

    That the beeb is now finally covering it is surprising, because it ties into the Savile (a bbc presenter for decades) outrages. It is widely alleged that the rumours about Savile et al were widespread for decades within the beeb. It also ties in to stories about child abuse and murder in Jersey (Haut de la Garenne) and in London ‘care homes’ under labour run councils.

    At the time those stories sounded hysterical. I’m sure that suited a lot of people in power at the time.

    Like

  43. Liz says:

    OT/
    Can anyone tell what my avatar is or is the image too small?
    It’s a girl holding a pineapple, and a little dog (supposed to be a jack russell terrier)

    Like

  44. jf12 says:

    Fair warning: This comment may stimulate conniptions in susceptible females. First a little bump, then setting myself for the spike.

    Bump. When I went to my 20th high school reunion, it seemed all the girls misremembered *everything* that happened that put them in a bad light in retrospect. For example each girl that I talked to that had turned me down back then claimed they would have gone out with me back then if I had asked. I can’t tell if the females literally are merely lying or also deceive themselves (in order to better spread untruth).

    Set. I was turned down for a date several dozen times by a couple dozen girls in high school. Eventually I quickly married the first girl to ever go out with me, as a junior in college. Naturally I primarily asked out the girls that were near me, i.e. in the smarty pants classes, and moreover concentrated my efforts on the girls that seemed most likely to go out with me. It is the same exact story with every unwanted nerd boy.

    Spike. The most breath-takingly ambitious and audacious bit of deception I’ve ever heard of is this: despite the almost 100% horrible way 101% of girls treat almost 100% of nerd boys, these *same* girls 101% of the time later come to tell other people that they, the girls, *were* the nerd boys that they treated badly! Even if the girls succeed in their self deception, for sympathetic ego preservation “I shouldn’t have done that, and therefore it wasn’t me who did that”, they never succeed in convincing the nerd boys. Never. Ever. We will never forget.

    I’ve lampooned this hamsterization, to great NAWALT consternation, as “I remember being a 15 yr old with taped glasses that kept breaking, and this boy came on the bus with a roll of masking tape and suggested I do my whole face! Oh wait, that was a girl that said that. Hmm. Come to think of it, I didn’t wear glasses then. I wonder who I’m thinking of? Oh well, it’s the feeling that counts, right?”

    Liked by 2 people

  45. Spawny Get says:

    oooohhhh this is on topic regarding MGTOW and marriage. Good analysis. Don’t be put off by the channel title, the commentary is fine.

    Like

  46. Spawny Get says:

    I can see the gurl, if you call the other thing a dog…I’ll believe you

    Like

  47. Liz says:

    “I can see the gurl, if you call the other thing a dog…I’ll believe you”

    LOL! Thanks Swithy. I think it’s probably too small….

    Like

  48. thedeti says:

    Swith, Mar 17, 6:18 PM:

    I think you should make that comment a stand alone post. Lots of people misunderstand MGTOW as “no women, never ever ever, no sex, asexual, sworn off women forever and ever”. That might set people straight on that particular strain of MGTOW.

    Like

  49. jf12 says:

    “What do you mean, “horrible”, anyway? Can it possibly be as horrible as being asked out by hordes of unwanted nerd boys?”

    Like

  50. @ Spawny I see….and I can understand why you feel the way you do. You seem like a nice guy, you all do, it’s too bad things are the way they are. It really is. For all of us. I think all of this is a little too close to home for me right now…

    Like

  51. Spawny Get says:

    Deti, I might just do that. It kind of took me by surprise. It was a very fair question by Bloom. I wrote the first draft ending with a joke (where are my likes?), but I then went back and expanded the beginning and middle bit and ended up in quite a bad mood (the comment about that was no joke. you can see the language changing as it goes).

    Like

  52. jf12 says:

    “What does one believe? The first thing to do is to check to see who has an agenda; one where it might be profitable (financially and otherwise) to if not outright lie, to massage the truth.”

    As we all know, it is negatively profitable for a man to claim that women did not desire him sexually. Hence, that man can be believed, according to this line of thought. As we all know, it is both profitable and important to the Feminine Imperative for women to unconsciously make the true motives of women’s sexual behaviors as murky as possible, to make it more difficult for men to leverage that knowledge successfully. In a sense, the unpredictability of women’s explanations is itself explainable as turbulence, as evasive maneuvers, as dispersal of chaff, intended to throw off the guided missiles on their six.

    Like

  53. Spawny Get says:

    JF,
    that comment at 6:48pm was 100% fine. In fact better than that. It had full impact without even swearing (like I did in my comment)

    Like

  54. Spawny Get says:

    Hey Bloom, I hope you stick around. I’m not angry with anyone here.

    I think that the recent row might have been misunderstood by some. Make all the red-pill points that you want, just don’t make them personal unless the person deserves it. And I don’t think that anyone here does. From time to time a teaching moment occurs, but lessons aren’t best delivered with a chest prodding pipe-stem.

    JF’s comment on his reunion probably rang true to a few here, it was well made. Honest recounting of personal history is what really gets blue pill lurkers, or those that arrive by accident, to go, “hey these guys are talking about my reality too”. That’s when the red-pill message gets delivered.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. jf12 says:

    Meanwhile, back at the lab …

    There are many, many, many women who make careers as glasses-and-labcoat presentation models (aka booth babes) for geek products, laboratory supply magazine covergirls, gamer chicks, and the list is endless. Sexy librarians, sexy teachers, sexy maids, sexy waitresses, any thing a girl might do is countable as sexy by men. Girls who are actually surrounded by nerds *complain* about the nerds thinking they might have a chance. There is NO female equivalent to unwanted males, and females hate that males would know that.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. Liz says:

    I didn’t go to my reunion (no one there I want to see), but I have noticed that most of the popular crowd back then weren’t very successful in life. The “hot” highschool girls didn’t age well at all (nor did most of the members of the football team, aka “hot guys” back then).

    Like

  57. Spawny Get says:

    Farm Boy have you plans to post in the next few days? I don’t think that I’m ready right now. I might sleep on making that comment the basis of a post on ‘Cold MGTOW’, or maybe ‘Indifference MGTOW’.

    And Bloom, there are always going to be some men (and bears) that do think marriage is worth it. And by their own value systems? they might be right. I wish them well because I have always believed that NAWALT. I’m just not able to give a figure on it, and so the odds are incalculable. MGTOW is too painful for some.

    Like

  58. jf12 says:

    re : “chest prodding pipe-stem”

    I don’t know what I’ll do with my giant pipe-stem. I suppose I could twirl it like a majorette.

    Like

  59. Liz says:

    So…you’re saying you’re well hung?

    😛

    Liked by 1 person

  60. jf12 says:

    It’s never been true of any woman ever that “all I ever wanted was a nice intelligent man”, even though that’s what all women always say, and in contrast it’s never been true that men tend to say “all I’ve ever pined for was a too-heavy woman”, so you’re deliberately comparing the wrong ends of the spectrum.

    Moreover, in addition to actual chubby-chasers far far far outweighing even hypothetical nerd-chasers, empirically the nicer the man AND the more intelligent men the less sex that women give him, while the chunkier and stupider the woman the higher her N.

    Like

  61. Spawny Get says:

    I went through friends reunited anonymously 10 years ago (I suppose). Mildly curious as to what people got up to. The school golden boy of my year had grown an immense ego, but his best friends at the time? some of them even joked self-deprecatingly. I’d say they were a decent bunch (just as they were at school).

    At the time I was at school I was a de-facto geek, but that wasn’t a thing back then (in the UK). I just went my own way, did my own thing without any problems or comments. I can’t imagine making much effort to take part in a reunion (iirc one was held), I’m just not that interested in hearing stories of people I happened to be in school with 30 years ago. They were fine, I wish them well but I can’t say I ‘CARE’. Never been much of a joiner, just not wired that way. As I’ve said before, going MGTOW was no big stretch for me as I’ve always been independently minded and self amusing. That’s why I am unconcerned by others taking the red-pill and then choosing to do things differently because they feel deeply that MGTOW is not a path they can endure or bear the costs of emotionally.

    Like

  62. Yoda says:

    A post available FB does have.

    Like

  63. jf12 says:

    re: long fingers

    Actually my prodder (pointer) finger isn’t very long.

    Like

  64. Spawny Get says:

    By all means go for it on schedule, FB. I don’t think I said it all in that comment, but it’s not immediately obvious to me what to add.

    Any one got any comments or questions that I might mull over?

    Did what I say in that comment surprise anyone after the recent row?

    I don’t need to be angry to be GMOW.

    I don’t think that being angry would help me.

    I think that being angry beyond a basic level gets in the way of the message. Though a little anger can help underline things, I suppose (that’s why I left the swear words in).

    I think that a lot of guys younger than me are going to grow up with similar attitudes to mine. If society is lucky. There are worse options.

    Some years ago, on another blog (no not that one, the one before that one) that men don’t have to start hating women for it to become a very cold world for women, men just need to stop caring about women. A lot of feminists are gleefully running around causing that to happen.

    Like

  65. Spawny Get says:

    “Actually my prodder (pointer) finger isn’t very long.”

    it’s the ratio to the ring finger that allegedly matters, but I really wouldn’t be surprised to hear that you were (also) High-T in the womb,

    I did flick through that Finger Book. Some of the graphs were used to make claims that looked mighty bloody tenuous to me. Others were more convincing.

    Like

  66. jf12 says:

    re: NAMGTOWALT
    re: “Did what I say in that comment surprise anyone”?

    Not I. I *think* MGTOW harbor no particular ill will towards women, they just do not believe in the realizable value for a man of pursuing relationships with women like women want.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Spawny Get says:

    As soon as you don’t want kids any serious relationship with women becomes unnecessary. The leverage to engage with the gynocentric society we live in on society’s terms is gone.

    Like

  68. jf12 says:

    re: men lying

    Yes, sure, men do it too, but not usually the same ways nor for the same purposes. Often a man who becomes a ladies’ man still somewhat young, e.g. in his 20s, will say (and/or think) somewhat erroneously “I could have had her” about some particular her that had shot him down in reality. He thinks maybe if he had approached a little differently, if he had said something just a little sexier, just brushed one more tooth, it would have been easy.

    I do not believe this mental aberration *grossly* affects men who were never very successful when young with women, since it is designed to rewrite his history in order to make him more attractive in the *present*, and we know a history of unattractiveness is basically merely anti-preselection. And, bluntly, for middle aged and older guys all history is ancient history graven into stone tablets and unrewritable.

    Like

  69. Liz says:

    “Yes, sure, men do it too, but not usually the same ways nor for the same purposes.”

    I think this is true. As you noted above, it is negatively profitable for a man to claim that women did not desire him sexually. If it’s negatively profitable to make the afforementioned claim, it might be positively profitable to make the opposite claim.

    Like

  70. jf12 says:

    re: “might be positively profitable”

    Yes, that is part of one of the points I was making that I guess I forgot to explicitize: he may fool himself into thinking he had a better chance in the past in order for him to have a better chance in the present (confidence, and all that). Thing is, if he really never had a chance with her, nobody is going to let him forget it. Thus to the small extent that men do lie to themselves about such things, it’s typically gray areas anyway.

    Like

  71. Liz says:

    I was thinking of one of my husband’s old roomates who claimed to have a ‘five run inning’ with ‘Inga’ (UF calendar girl, month:April). He said they came home late, then he banged her five times without rest, and sent her out the door in the morning so she wouldn’t disturb anyone. Guys do things like that, too. (not just lie to themselves about the past and what might have been…I agree wholeheartedly women do that more)

    Like

  72. jf12 says:

    re: “I could have had him” (not quoting anybody, just putting thoughts in minds. Is that such a bad thing, really? What is comunication other than “You’re just trying to make me think the thoughts that you want me to think!”)

    I’m going to guess, without ever really hearsing so, that many a woman will say (and/or think) quite erroneously “I couldn’t have had him” about some particular him that she never got the chance to shoot down. She always knows she could have wiggled her way up to him and whispered “hey, you wanna?” and she could have had him, that way. Maybe all that she wants to convey, even to herself, is that she wouldn’t lower her standards even to get what she could get, if she can’t get it in the *way* that she wants to get it. She doesn’t have to offer a candlelight dinner; “I found this fairly clean piece of cardboard from the school dumpster for me to kneel on” will be *warmly* received.

    Like

  73. jf12 says:

    re: “I agree wholeheartedly women do that more”

    I concede the existence of alphas. I think as many as 10% of men could have as many women as they could handle every single day. We often say 20%, but what I mean is that as many as 20% of men are not indentured servants of sex. As many as 20% of men are made sandwiches, sometimes.

    Like

  74. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Liz,
    Your avatar is too small to allow much detail to be seen I can see the pineapple but, not much els. You need a generic avatar that won’t let people figure out your identity.

    Liked by 2 people

  75. Liz says:

    I worded that awkwardly…I meant they lie to themselves more about the past. End dot. Exhibit A your reunion story.
    However…yes, women do say, “He wanted me!” and “You should have seen how he was looking at me!” also…”I had the best body at the pool/beach”…and so forth
    (at least, some do…a certain type…the female equivalent to the dude who claims he’s banging the hottest chicks left and right and isn’t)

    Like

  76. Liz says:

    Thanks Fuzzie! I changed it…it’s an image I’m drawing (not me). 😛

    Like

  77. Liz says:

    I might change it again…Not sure I like the way it looks there…hm.
    Ah well, good enough for now.

    Like

  78. Spawny, don’t worry, I didn’t take it personally. I’m not going anywhere 🙂 What I meant was it’s all a little too close for me right now because of what I am personally going through, this idea that so many good men are steering clear of women (including me) because of the MMP.

    Liked by 2 people

  79. ….because I don’t want to end up with an old lady with lots of cats. At this rate, I am not so sure I won’t 😦

    Like

  80. Whoops, typo it should have said I don’t want to end up an old lady with cats. What a difference a word makes!! I also do not want to marry a cat lady, but I hope by now that is obvious.

    Liked by 1 person

  81. Liz says:

    Funny Bloom. 🙂

    I’m sorry things are so awful right now. 😦
    But I think you will find someone great, and you have your daughters…that’s not something the stereotypical cat lady has. You should go for one of those uplifting walks around the property again…that seems to uplift your spirits.
    Also…have you ever heard of power breathing for stress relief? That sometimes helps for me.

    Link: http://www.crossroadsmassagetherapy.com/content/two-five-minute-power-breathing-techniques

    Liked by 1 person

  82. jf12 says:

    re; “yes, women do say, “He wanted me!””

    Oh yes! I’m going to presciently state (hardly anything is a stretch for Mr. Fantastic) that we will never get a straight answer from any woman about the value of generic male desire towards her.

    But since it IS true that generic men generically desire generic women (does anyone else besides men know that the average woman in porn has a completely average appearance?), this is hard for women to get untrue, but still they succeed. What women typically get wrong about “He wanted me!” is meaning “Only SpecialHotDude only SpecialHotWanted only SpecialHotMe!”

    Like

  83. jf12 says:

    re: “Not sure I like the way it looks”

    Gray hair is fine.

    Liked by 1 person

  84. Liz says:

    Cute puppy! By gum, I got it. This I like. This it will stay.
    (runs around squealing with delight)

    Liked by 1 person

  85. Liz says:

    Unless you think I shouldn’t…?

    Like

  86. Liz says:

    I’m low maintenance, I swear!

    Liked by 2 people

  87. Spawny Get says:

    I understand Bloom. I should have said, please stick around in the longer term, but I understand that now’s not a great time for this discussion.

    I wouldn’t look too far ahead right now if I were you. Take it easy. Don’t start buying cats just yet. I’m ahead of the curve for my age. And I’m INTJ, baby! We’re the ones that cut their losses earliest. It’s a well established fact that blogs like this are very INTJ heavy.

    Liked by 1 person

  88. jf12 says:

    re: getting women

    I for one do not hold to the “rising tide still doesn’t lift 80% of ships” theory about the fixedness of the ratio of alphas to betas. Thus, there is a slight bit of truth to Liz’s (and not just her) analogizing hefty women and nerdy men. It is true that every step that a nerd takes to make himself less nerdy, i.e. less nice and less brainy, i.e. more brutal and more body, will garner him more success with more women.

    But men will point to some woman they aren’t actually attracted to and truthfully say “Don’t be like her if you want to succeed with men” while women will poin to the one guy they are most ashamed of being attracted to and deliberately untruthfully say “Don’t be like him if you want to succeed with women”. It’s a fact. And, in fact, one big reason many, if not most, men gtow is because they really *don’t* want to play PUA games, they really *don’t* want to “be like him”.

    Liked by 1 person

  89. Liz says:

    “But men will point to some woman they aren’t actually attracted to and truthfully say “Don’t be like her if you want to succeed with men” while women will poin to the one guy they are most ashamed of being attracted to and deliberately untruthfully say “Don’t be like him if you want to succeed with women”. It’s a fact. And, in fact, one big reason many, if not most, men gtow is because they really *don’t* want to play PUA games, they really *don’t* want to “be like him”.

    I agree with this. But there’s a huge difference between a man who stands up for himself (MGTOWs already ipso facto do…and they aren’t the only ones) and a “jerk”. I’m already shielding my keyboard from the colloquial flecks of spittle I know are headed my direction for a very truthful and reasonable observation. Women don’t respect supplicants…but not many people do. The problem is, men often think that’s what women want (because they don’t know what they want). We’ve been here before JF12. There’s a vast middle ground between supplicant and prick…everyone who do stands up for himself is NOT “some degree of prick”.

    Liked by 1 person

  90. Spawny Get says:

    I agree with Liz, but I almost agree with JF too. Just drop the deliberately untruthful. I said about brain wiring differences before. Females can have a visceral ‘I want that’ and simultaneously a human ‘he isn’t a good candidate for husband’ more easily than a man can, I think. And if you raise females in general not to have to consider consequences, like society does, it’s far easier for the frontal lobes to give up and slip out for a latte.

    Liked by 1 person

  91. thedeti says:

    “There’s a vast middle ground between supplicant and prick…everyone who do stands up for himself is NOT “some degree of prick”.”

    True, Liz, but for men, generally the issue is where on the spectrum he should fall for best results with the woman in his life.

    Christian McQueen said something that really lines up with my experience. “Women have almost always forgiven me for being a dick; but no woman has ever forgiven me for being a pussy.”

    Stated another way: A guy will get much better results being closer to “prick” than to “supplicant”.

    Liked by 2 people

  92. Spawny Get says:

    “And, in fact, one big reason many, if not most, men gtow is because they really *don’t* want to play PUA games, they really *don’t* want to “be like him”.”

    Sounds like me.

    Liked by 1 person

  93. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Liz,
    Your new avatar is delightful and there is no way that it can identify you. Good enough works and perfection is unobtainable.

    Liked by 1 person

  94. Liz says:

    “Stated another way: A guy will get much better results being closer to “prick” than to “supplicant”.

    That is true.

    Liked by 1 person

  95. thedeti says:

    Looking back on relationships with women (in fact, relationships with anyone), my greatest failures always happened because of fear and doubt. Indecision. Failure to act. Failure to proceed with boldness . Failure to DO SOMETHING, do ANYTHING. Failure to pursue something or someone I wanted. And I was never forgiven for it. Girls refused sex, broke up with me. I was pushed out of people’s lives. I didn’t get something I wanted or needed, and the opportunity was forever lost. I was never forgiven for being a pussy.

    Liked by 1 person

  96. Spawny Get says:

    Deti, that sounds like what I hear of the male church experience and how females talk of the males they find there. Men doing / being what they’ve been told to do / be.

    Like

  97. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    Your motives are honest. Having got to the end of this thread, that alone is putting you ahead of nearly all your competitors. What this thread is making me realize is that very few women are honest agents. In time, men come to see that and their only defense is retreat.

    Liked by 1 person

  98. Spawny Get says:

    Another plus is that the Bloom is bringing things to the table. A business and the nouse to run it. She’s offering a partnership not a financial dependant. It helps, it also reduces the divorce settlement issue (just considering the worst case scenario here).

    Liked by 1 person

  99. theasdgamer says:

    When he was bad, he was simply all-bad, and it wasn’t understandable.

    Anakin lacked mystery and complexity, which are hamster fodder.

    Like

  100. Spawny Get says:

    And he walked around with a face like a smacked arse.

    Like

  101. theasdgamer says:

    Great chick-magnet avatar, Liz!

    Liked by 1 person

  102. theasdgamer says:

    @ Spawney

    I’ve asked around if I’m seen as a male ten…the answer was distressingly short of a resounding, unanimous absolutely.

    Then there be something awry, matey!

    Liked by 2 people

  103. Spawny Get says:

    Gamer, some of them tried telling me that 9.9 wasn’t bad, but…

    Liked by 3 people

  104. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Bloom’s experience drives home one of my earlier thoughts (to me, anyway) that there’s no brand that distinguishes good women from bad women, and they’re all saying and doing the same things. The result is that a man has to assume his woman is a bad woman, since that’s more likely.

    Any decision a man makes to get married is going to be irrational and subject to irrational whims. A rational man wouldn’t consider marriage, regardless of the girl.

    Women should probably do something about that, before something is done.

    Like

  105. Cp what can be done?

    Like

  106. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    For what it’s worth, I can read my own reasons and motives into Bloom’s description of her fiancee’s behavior, but that would be both presumptuous and most likely inaccurate. Nor is that to say I’m supportive of her fiancees behavior. Just hypothetically sympathetic of potential reasons.

    Bloom, I’m sorry it sucks. It might suck less later. That’s as far as my encouragement can go with the whole pessimism thing. Mmmm… Regret and broken promises… Crunchy. 😉

    Like

  107. I hate to keep going on and on here but I am trying to figure out how does someone go from “I love you and want to marry you” to not even talking to you? I know you guys have already said not to internalize it but a Hal’s gotta wonder if he ever loved her or wtf? I dunno, I was explaining the jealousy thing to a friend when I broke the news and it was like I couldn’t believe as I heard myself talking that I didn’t see that for as much of a red flag that it was, and yet here I still am wishing I had him back. I am confused… I mean one day he’s saying he loved me so much that it would tear his heart out of anything ever happened to me, 3 days later he ghosts…. I could be dead in a ditch for all he seems to care. Aaaarrrrgh. Was he faking all that? Or??? (Dishes fly, nuclear clouds of fury, doors slam) how could I be so stupid? I thought he was the real deal…I know, I am obsessing.

    Liked by 1 person

  108. Like rollo and others say a woman can’t love as deeply as a man, as truly as a man and yet??? Or is he a narccisist or ???? I truly don’t get it.

    Liked by 1 person

  109. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “Cp what can be done?”

    Simple. Change the prevailing culture to one where men encourage women to shame each other into good behavior. Well, it couldn’t hurt, anyway.

    To seriously answer your question, though, I don’t know that you specifically can do much more than be a good woman, and hope that a man will risk it. And if you want your daughters to have a better time of it, continue to be a good woman once a man decides to risk it.

    Liked by 3 people

  110. I know I should be glad we didn’t get married, my head says that but my heart… My heart is slow on the uptake here. He went from all in to all out on a dime.

    As for owning a biz and a home and such you would think that would be a bonus but it’s been seen as a drawback more than once. It adds a lot of complexity.

    Like

  111. Cp I have a blog that’s all about trying to tell women to “wake up!!! You are headed for the cliff, ladies!” I agree, women used to keep each other in check, now most are encouraging each other to do whatever…go girl! In real life I tell women too to work on their marriage, don’t divorce, advocate their husband’s pov and point out where these ladies are going all wrong.

    And I will continue that, even if nobody seems to be listening.

    Liked by 2 people

  112. And sorry, I know I am ranting. I am just wondering is my picker what’s wrong, or this crazy world makes it dang near impossible, or what? Ug.

    Liked by 1 person

  113. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    RPG, like I said, I’d be presumptuous and most likely wrong trying to divine your fiancee’s motives without hearing anything from him. That said, here’s what I would be thinking: In or out. Shit or get off the pot. Here are some irrationally arbitrary conditions I’m setting, so let’s see what the results are. Four or higher, I dig in. Three or less, I evacuate. I can’t go by my feelings because they’re unreliable, and rationally I shouldn’t be doing this at all, but I want to.

    And when his arbitrary and capricious conditions aren’t met, he quotes Hannibal Lecter: “This is going to hurt a lot.” And chops the hand that’s holding yours off.

    But that’s just me. It’s unlikely to be what your fiancée is actually thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

  114. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    Years ago, I was watching a crime documentary. At the end, the host talked about a technique used by old school detectives to winnow the guilty from the innocent suspects. You put him in a holding cell and keep an eye on him. If he goes to sleep, you’ve got the right guy. If he paces through the night, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
    You’re pacing.
    I don’t know what made him do what he did. You don’t either. Let it rest because you can’t fix it. You never broke it.

    Liked by 2 people

  115. Cp I am not sure I want to eat regrets and broken promises. I am stuck on thinking “most of the time” isn’t “all of the time.” If I allow myself to go there, I am not sure I could ever love again or be open to it. 😦 there’s got to be some, yes? Waaaaaaa sniff

    Like

  116. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,

    “And I will continue that, even if nobody seems to be listening.”
    The bear is listening with his little tound ears on top of his head. Not only that but, I think the Big Guy Upstairs is too.

    Liked by 2 people

  117. Cp he pretty much said basically that… I guess I missed how dead serious he was. 😦

    Also true fuzzie, but if I can do something more/different/better I want to. It’s never all one person. I must have some something…

    Like

  118. I hope so fuzzie, I hope the Big Guy is listening. Funny this, I picked up a copy of “Our Daily Bread” two days before all this went down. I have admittedly been off church due to “churchiness” reasons. But I do believe, deeply. Two days later, this. Today, this was the message:

    My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. —James 1:2-3
    Recently my wife, Marlene, and I received a panicky phone call from our son and his wife. The night before, they had found two bats in their house. I know bats are an important part of the ecosystem, but they are not my favorite among God’s creatures, especially when they are flying around inside.

    Yet Marlene and I were thankful we could go over to our kids’ house and help. We helped them to plug the holes that might have been used by these unwelcome visitors to enter their house.

    Another unwelcome visitor that often intrudes into our lives is suffering. When trials come, we can easily panic or lose heart. But these difficult circumstances can become the instruments our loving heavenly Father uses to make us more like Christ. That’s why James wrote, “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work” (James 1:2-4).

    We are not expected to enjoy trials or to celebrate suffering. But when these unwelcome visitors arrive, we can look for God’s hand in them and trust that He can use them to make us more like His Son.

    Thank You, Father, that You give to us each day what You know is best. We’re thankful that we can trust Your heart, which is kind beyond all measure.
    Trials may visit us, but our God is always with us.

    Coinky dink?

    Like

  119. Fuzzie, he also wanted me to give up the blog.

    Like

  120. And something I said shortly before he gave me the ljbf was that I wanted to go back to church.

    That said, his ex wife got up at 4 am daily to do devotionals, she was uber bible thumping. But still ran off with another then took him to the cleaners. So I get he may be off church or church types himself. But still…

    Liked by 1 person

  121. * or he’s says she ran off w another. Considering the jealousy I have experienced, and the irrational accusations, that may not be the case. So I don’t know.

    Liked by 1 person

  122. Our daily bread is a daily bible devotional, for those not familiar)

    Like

  123. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    That story that mentioned bats, the first thing that popped into my head is that pastor should give those bats to the Penn State professor that Yoda linked to. She has bats in her belfry and, the more, the merrier.

    Giving up the blog is something he shouldn’t demand, unless it was costing you too much time. Do you think that it may be a tactic to isolate you? That would not be good. A lot of space on the manosphere warns guys about that.

    Liked by 2 people

  124. Emma the Emo says:

    I think Anakin Skywalker didn’t work out as a total chick magnet, precisely because they tried to make him into a tragic hero that we’re supposed to feel sorry for, on purpose (btw, I actually liked that performance). And I noticed many fans fear Loki will be overused, and thus lose his charm. I agree. Let him be himself, don’t parade him in front of our eyes the whole movie, don’t give him a love interest, don’t make him a real hero. If they do that, what will fanfiction writers have left to write about?

    Like

  125. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    That his ex-wife ran off with someone and took him to the cleaners would go a long way to explaining cold feet. That she was a Bible thumper may be beside the point. I hate to say iy, because it is completely knee jerk, but a lot of church goers are terrible hypocrites.

    Liked by 1 person

  126. Liz says:

    Well, Bloom, I told my husband a little about this.
    And he mentioned that you’re probably better off without the guy if he’s going to go through your phone like that.
    Then I mentioned his jealousy when we started out, and he said, “Yeah, but I was 20 and still growing. No grown ass man should do that.”

    Liked by 1 person

  127. Liz says:

    “I think Anakin Skywalker didn’t work out as a total chick magnet, precisely because they tried to make him into a tragic hero that we’re supposed to feel sorry for, on purpose (btw, I actually liked that performance).”

    That’s an interesting take I hadn’t considered, Emma!

    Like

  128. Liz says:

    My avatar makes me smile every time I post. 🙂

    I was going to put a baby with a puppy (I have that one on my desktop) but I didn’t want anyone to think the baby was mine (I only wish!).

    Liked by 3 people

  129. Quiet and be still for….

    Easy to say, hard to do.

    As I was typing the above, the phone rang, the realtor representing the 10 acres next door. I told him what was happening and he said do not worry, we will wait for you!!! And then he offered to help find me an investor if needed!!! Apparently the people who own the property don’t need the money, they just want to see it go to a good use…and they believe in me!!!! Is that crazy, or what???

    Liked by 2 people

  130. Cill says:

    I already got my own baby, wee Meddy, who is a bro in the making.

    Liked by 1 person

  131. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Molly,
    That is good news! That your reputation precedes you to that extent is quite a compliment.

    Liked by 1 person

  132. Cill says:

    Fuzzy, by “Molly” you meant Bloom?

    Liked by 1 person

  133. Cill says:

    Fuzzy’s reaction to Bloom’s comment was the same as mine. Sometimes people don’t realize how much goodwill they’ve spread here and there.

    Liked by 2 people

  134. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    You are correct. That was meant to be addressed to Bloom.
    Sorry, Bloom.

    Liked by 1 person

  135. theasdgamer says:

    Bloom, you’ll be going through the grief process over this breakup. Anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Done that recently myself, to a much lesser degree. It sucks no matter which end you’re on. Your ex-fiancé is trying to make it easy on you both.

    Like

  136. @ you guys… You guys are so f’ing fantastic I cannot even express it. Thank you. Thank you for putting up with my s$&t and for believing in me. We have never even met but someday I hope we do because you guys are true blue. 1000% ( and I know 1000% is not possible but just the same!)

    Liked by 2 people

  137. ( bloom leaves rediculously large towers of sammiches and cookies and beverages and all sorts of good stuff in thanks!)

    Like

  138. Cill says:

    “realtor”, American equivalent of “Real Estate Agent”. I prefer “realtor” for being less grandiose.

    Bloom’s realtor sure knew how sweet talk goes. Bloom. please make big decisions slowly right now. But… don’t be jaundiced either. Big things can come, like how I (Cill) came upon my very own paradise, as you say a vendor who “want to see it go to a good use”. These people don’t get their decisions out of a crystal ball. They know of you. Could be great good. But… just be slow to make big decisions right now. You are tired and short of sleep.

    Liked by 3 people

  139. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    While I can only speak for myself, I think we all very fond of you. I think a lot of it has to do wih having a cooperative attitude to guys.
    By the way, I’ll share my Dad’s advice. Be very quick to sell and slow to buy.

    Cill,
    Big ticket sales agents must have brilliant talents. I saw something recently on Cartier selling the Hope Diamond. There were maybe a handful of customers for it at the time in whole world.

    Like

  140. Cill says:

    Bears lack mean bones in their bodies.

    Like

  141. Cill says:

    …Or should I say, this bear

    Like

  142. Cill says:

    This bear = Fuzzy BTW

    Like

  143. Cill says:

    Now me and wee Meddy are off to play some Toss-A-Dwarf and to hell with the SJWs

    Liked by 2 people

  144. Cill says:

    Wee Meddy can toss a mean dwarf.

    Like

  145. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    I think bear only get confrontational in exteme circumstances. They’re too busy thinking about and looking for food.

    Liked by 2 people

  146. Cill says:

    Bears attend to the fundamentals, and so should we all.

    Like

  147. Cill says:

    I’m off to have a drink with an old buddy. Over, and shortly to be out.

    Liked by 1 person

  148. Spawny Get says:

    Bloom,
    “As for owning a biz and a home and such you would think that would be a bonus but it’s been seen as a drawback more than once. It adds a lot of complexity.”

    maybe. but it adds considerably to your credibility as a partner (as opposed to financial deadweight, or worse). it demonstrates that you have capabilities that most men would find a plus..

    Liked by 1 person

  149. Spawny Get says:

    Bloom,
    a post you might think of making would be about the difference in attitude and help received on this topic, between that delivered by women and that by men. (Not that all women reacted the same, and all men did either).

    It might clarify your thoughts on why you want a man in your life and that is going to be helpful next time there’s a guy around. Rational things that you value in a man that he can think “yeah, I am a bit like that (genuinely feels good)” – I am NOT talking about brushing up his ego so he can be manipulated.
    * It might help some guys with any insecurity (just saying). You’re telling him that you recognise his worth. He might see that he has those things while blokes B-K don’t.
    * It shows that you are aware that you both are making a trade. So, you are aware that you have to bring something to the table too.
    * It shows that while you do wear big girl pants, you do value masculinity.
    * It might get him to focus on what he wants from a woman (shocking, I know, but many men have not thought about that) and hopefully see those properties in you (and not in some good looking, but conniving, bitch down the road).

    Just a thought. You can post it here, simulcast it here, or put it up at your place and I will happily reblog it and send the commenters your way. All your choice.

    Liked by 2 people

  150. Worry not, I agree sell quick, buy slow. The truth is there is a much bigger reason I was attracted to this property than money. I have turned away other investors who did not understand that. The business is a means to fund a much bigger goal. I would only consider offers from those who understood that and how special this place is. And I am sure there are few, higher purpose over quick money doesn’t sell fast anyway. The owners of the 10 acres being willing to not put the property on the open market but to wait on me would be a big sign we are like minded bc they, nor this realtor, certainly don’t owe me anything. Countless miracles large and small have happened here already. I have believed all along all I need to do is get up and show up and the rest will fall into place, however seemingly impossible or unknown how at the time. This is kind of cryptic I know but on purpose because it is the Internet after all, right? You guys could be ebul woman haters or something! 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  151. Spawny Get says:

    “or he’s says she ran off w another. Considering the jealousy I have experienced, and the irrational accusations, that may not be the case. So I don’t know.”

    NOW you’re thinking like a man!

    It’s one of the things that drive some men nuts; that women will swallow any old tale (usually bashing men and/or selling victimhood of the teller/heroine). Maybe it’s the hunt for drama, maybe it’s safer in the fem-herd to not go around disbelieving the herd narrative?

    If my mother in law and father in law had shown a little judgement early on on whether ‘her’ tales were likely true or not…she might not have gone completely off the rails. At the time they swallowed all her dribble. It was only when it was too late and the divorce was in progress that they wanted her to come back to me. Which she did. I put her back on the rails and sent her on her way. Her parting gift was to spit in my face, buy hey! women ehh?

    I think that that concludes my marital reminiscences. They sour my day even nearly two decades on. And no, truly, I don’t think of her very much at all.

    Liked by 2 people

  152. Spawny Get says:

    “Bears attend to the fundamentals, and so should we all.”

    The Bear necessities? The simple bear necessities? Forget about your worries and your…

    Liked by 1 person

  153. P.s. can you guys just run my life? Seriously, ya’ll seem to get all this a lot better than I do. But I mean well, I am trying, if that counts for anything!!! 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  154. Spawny Get says:

    “You guys could be ebul woman haters or something! 😉 ”

    Speaking of which

    Liked by 1 person

  155. This realtor works for Berkshire Hathaway, says he’s in the top 10% of their sales team. And that his boss is a good man whose son does what I do but on a bigger scale and in a better known region, and so he’ll check if he’s interested to invest. I don’t know what to make of it. The realtor came by sat. While my biz was open, one day after the ljbf bomb. As customers came and went he watched me in action. The conversations had during that time with customers revealed the whole story why i do what i do and what this is really all about. i didnt intend it that way but at the time i thought i could not have scripted it better, had i planned it. Who knows, I could use a miracle or two! Because between us, I really don’t know how else this is gonna work! And I never have. But it’s working somehow… So I am going with it. Maybe the Big Guy is at work in all this… And to that I say thank God! Because I need his help!

    Liked by 1 person

  156. Btw, today’s our daily bread post! (It’s 3 am my time and yes I have insomnia!)

    [Jesus said,] “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” —Matthew 4:4
    During recent elections in my country, one struggling mom I know exchanged her vote for a bag of diapers. We had discussed the benefits of each candidate, so her choice disappointed me. “But what about your convictions?” I asked. She remained silent. Six months after her candidate won, taxes went even higher. Everything is now more expensive than before . . . even diapers!

    In countries around the world, political corruption is not new. Spiritual corruption is not new either. Satan tried to lure Jesus into “selling” His convictions (Matt. 4:1-10). The tempter came to Him when He was tired and hungry. He offered Him immediate satisfaction, fresh bread in seconds, a miraculous delivery, the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

    But Jesus knew better. He knew that shortcuts were dangerous enemies. They may offer a road free from suffering, but in the end the pain they carry is much worse than anything we can imagine. “It is written,” Jesus said three times during His temptation (vv.4,7,10). He held firm to what He knew was true from God and His Word.

    When we are tempted, God can help us too. We can depend on Him and the truth of His Word to help us avoid dangerous shortcuts.

    Help me not to take shortcuts to satisfaction, Lord. Help me to run to You and Your Word for the strength to fight the enemy. I’m confident that You will be there to help me.
    God’s road is not easy, but it leads to eternal satisfaction.

    Coinky dink? I dunno, I am going with it!

    Liked by 1 person

  157. P.s. I have wanted to buy the 10 acres next door for 12 years now, just to put the idea of that in perspective. But I also don’t “need” it. When the fiancée contacted them and they said “yes, we never thought if selling it but now that you mention it, if you don’t buy it we will sell otherwise” just days after he started getting cold feet…it seemed like total disaster, two dreams gone at once. But maybe not… Maybe it is all happening for the best. And fuzzie, get my name right! 😉 just bc I was on cloud nine at the time, having hust got this news, doesn’t mean I missed that! Not that I wouldn’t like to be 18 with my whole life ahead of me, windsurfing in New Zealand! Who wouldn’t? 😉 she’s a good girl, I miss her!

    Liked by 1 person

  158. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz

    Then I mentioned his jealousy when we started out, and he said, “Yeah, but I was 20 and still growing. No grown ass man should do that.”

    Otoh, he is married to a faithful wife, so maybe he’d have a different opinion if he had been married to one whom he knew slept around.

    Liked by 2 people

  159. theasdgamer says:

    @ RPG

    Beware rebound relationships! Just a reminder.

    Liked by 2 people

  160. Liz says:

    “Otoh, he is married to a faithful wife, so maybe he’d have a different opinion if he had been married to one whom he knew slept around.”

    That is true. We’re all the product of our experiences.

    Liked by 2 people

  161. @gamer good reminder! I think I am going to focus on me and mine and the biz for awhile.

    @ fuzzie I probably do spend too much time on the blogs, but I don’t watch TV and its hard to find folks capable of these kinds of discussion irl. I consider it self improvement time! It bothered him, he thought it was a cyber affair or something. I started to get real self concious of it around him. Eggshells!

    Liked by 1 person

  162. jf12 says:

    re: “how does someone go from “I love you and want to marry you” to not even talking to you?”

    I would like to say “I dunno”, but if he had been in love then the answer is the process of estrangement, which (for men, at least) is predicated on the perception of betrayal.

    Like

  163. jf12 says:

    Fuzzie Wuzzie wisely observes of certain things that if you didn’t break it then you can’t fix it.

    Liked by 1 person

  164. Spawny Get says:

    perception of betrayal” OR “Whoa I got carried away there”

    Like

  165. jf12 says:

    re: “or he says she ran off w another”

    Hmm. Do you mean you have doubts that she ran off to be with another man? On Rollo’s new post he talks about the common situation of a wife leaving a beta believing that she will be able to snag some particular alpha, and then soon settling very unhappily on a different man who is even more beta than her ex-husband.

    His mention of me reminds me to disguise myself by changing my commenting name to something unexpected, like jf13.

    Like

  166. jf12 says:

    re: realizing “Whoa I got carried away there”

    That describes my life a lot of the time. But as applied to falling in love, I’m not sure how oneitis interruptus would work.

    Like

  167. Spawny Get says:

    “Do you mean you have doubts that she ran off to be with another man?”

    I read that as the sensible statement that She [Bloom] only has his word on what happened

    Re the proposed subterfuge, I would hope that sooner or later someone here would penetrate the charade.

    Liked by 2 people

  168. Spawny Get says:

    “I’m not sure how oneitis interruptus would work.”

    From personal experience (Major information discovered at a very late date) “OMFG – run away”

    Liked by 1 person

  169. jf13 says:

    re: subterfuge

    I was serious. I’m going to try posting as jf13 here.

    Liked by 3 people

  170. Spawny Get says:

    Fair enough…have at it. You’re new secret identity is okayed

    Liked by 1 person

  171. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Who’s this jf13 character? We’re not accepting new members, are we?

    Liked by 2 people

  172. Spawny Get says:

    I’m picturing an avatar of The Hooded Claw…

    Liked by 1 person

  173. Spawny Get says:

    CP I got great character references for new mystery man JF13 from old lag JF12
    (to save a search ‘old lag’ = ‘prison inmate who has already been locked up for years’. Nothing troublesome intended)

    Like

  174. Liz says:

    That’s very crafty and sneaky Jf13…you must have some Italian in you, too. 😛

    Liked by 1 person

  175. Spawny Get says:

    Gamer, sorry that comment went into spam, I only just noticed
    ( 18 March, 2015 at 12:12 am )

    @ Spawney

    Found a song with pipe-stem-prodding in the lyrics:

    http://www.jakethackray.com/archive/songs/the-lyrics-and-guitar-tabs/item/my-pipe-my-boots-and-my-lord.html

    The lyrics of that song are a winner

    Like

  176. Perception of betrayal – he sure seemed to be looking for one with the phone snooping and such. But there was none. It still didnt seem to reassure him.

    As for his ex yes I meant like spawny says, I have only heard his side of the story… May be true, may be not. In reporter lingo, “allegedly” would be the phrase. He had other relationships where it allegedly happened as well which is why I tried to be understanding about that hoping he’d see. And maybe he still will. If so as spawney says, there would be some explaining to do…

    Liked by 1 person

  177. jf13 says:

    re: “Perception of betrayal – he sure seemed to be looking for one”

    I’m sorry.

    Like

  178. thedeti says:

    Bloom:

    I saw somewhere up there that your ex wanted you to stop blogging.

    If he is a good man, and you seem to think he is, then you should give up the blog.

    You should compromise for him.

    Like

  179. thedeti says:

    Sorry — your man, not your ” ex.”

    Like

  180. It was more than the blogging Deti, it’s all there in the exact subject hard to determine thread.

    But yes in retrospect I do think like cp said he laid down some demands and I balked, I reacted emotionally rather than logically, I should have just done it.

    Like

  181. @ Deti I have also extended the olive branch three times since this happened, said I would do whatever he asked, asked him to go see a counselor to talk about it, no interest so far. The last time I said it I ended with saying the offer is on the table. Maybe with time? I am not sure. Maybe I flunked the test?

    Like

  182. Spawny Get says:

    “Maybe I flunked the test?”

    And maybe that’s for the best

    Liked by 2 people

  183. Spawney hopefully in time all will become more clear. Right now I am not sure what to think.

    Liked by 2 people

  184. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part!

    Liked by 2 people

  185. thedeti says:

    Spawny could be right. Could be for the best. But, Bloom, it’s also good that you realize the error you made in reacting emotionally to his demands. You didn’t see things from his viewpoint.

    Figure out whether any of the demands he made are unreasonable, and whether any of them are “hills you think are worth dying on”. If they are, and compromise cannot be reached, then so be it. Most of the time a man will not be unreasonable. A man’s capacity to tolerate bullshit for a woman he loves is, I have realized, very, very, VERY large.

    Liked by 2 people

  186. Cp I am open to suggestions!

    Deti, the big one was about my child support. Right now it’s paid to me directly and is current, he wanted me to do it thru the state and also ask for reevaluation on the amount. I did not understand why, and I now think I misunderstood why, feared it would cause problems and also could take awhile to get going and in the meantime go without until then which would have put me in a bind bill wise. Ton explained it very clearly and then I could see I should have just done it but it was too late. I believe he felt I wasn’t “all in.” It was getting close to point of no return on some of his stuff like listing his home for sale, he seemed to get cold feet, I was stalling, I think he looked into the abyss and couldn’t do it. That’s best I can figure. I do miss him, I do hope at some point he will reconsider. Right now he’s completely non responsive so I think I need to leave it alone and hope for the best.

    Like

  187. If nothing else I have learned a very valuable lesson.

    Liked by 1 person

  188. Spawny Get says:

    “Most of the time a man will not be unreasonable”

    Very key; is he being unreasonable? but a very subjective thing.

    I don’t like the phone searching and that may colour my view of his other demands and behaviour. I’m also not loving the refusal to meet your eye or have an adult discussion.

    None of it’s definitive, but your view on the events should be a lot more nuanced than your written description.

    Liked by 2 people

  189. Cill says:

    thedeti, “Spawny could be right”

    You could be right too, thedeti. That’s why I proposed to go and talk to the man, see where he’s at. I came up with that brilliant proposal whilst in a sleep-deprived state (still am). It was a ludicrous proposal, but I thought, someone has to do something.

    However, I’d be worried about Bloom + fiancee in a practical sense. Bloom would like a man who would lead. Her fiancee tried to lead. His suggestions for her business would’ve dumped $500,000 of borrowings on her head. Being led because you want to be led is not ipso facto a good thing.

    Bloom is good at what she does. She has run her business for years. There are signs that other people see good business quality in her. A strong confident man would say “if it’s not broken why fix it” and let her run her business while he minds his own source of income. Or he would learn from her, and become good at her business by learning from her example. If he really becomes damn good at it, then he could lead. He would not just jump in holus–bolus, and “lead”.

    In this sense, Bloom + fiancee is not a good thing. There is a home and business at stake. She is better at her business than he is. Perhaps her fiancee realizes, his attempt to lead was a failure. How is Bloom to know this, unless someone asks him outright? (and No, I’m not proposing to be the one who asks)

    Liked by 2 people

  190. Yoda says:

    Right now he’s completely non responsive

    Probably expecting drama he is.
    Typical male response this would be.

    Like

  191. Yoda says:

    His suggestions for her business would’ve dumped $500,000 of borrowings on her head.

    Deal breaker for me this is.
    Phone snooping also.

    Liked by 3 people

  192. Spawny Get says:

    “Probably expecting drama he is.
    Typical male response this would be.”

    it’s kind of self fulfilling though, isn’t it?

    If I were in Bloom’s shoes (metaphorically speaking) I’d be mighty unimpressed at his just ignoring everything. But if I got pissed and tackled him…I’d be being emotional, wouldn’t I?

    You can’t have an adult relationship without two rational adults.

    If anything, I think he’s doing what we’d usually see as ‘the female thing’, however, I would allow that maybe he’s doing the silent routine because he genuinely thinks it’s the best way forward. Personally I wouldn’t see it that way, but perhaps he does. INTJ => I want the data

    Liked by 1 person

  193. Yoda says:

    If nothing else I have learned a very valuable lesson.

    Yoda desires this wisdom he does.

    Liked by 1 person

  194. Cill says:

    “INTJ => I want the data”
    Yup

    Liked by 2 people

  195. Spawny Get says:

    “A strong confident man would say “if it’s not broken why fix it” and let her run her business while he minds his own source of income. Or he would learn from her, and become good at her business by learning from her example. If he really becomes damn good at it, then he could lead. He would not just jump in holus–bolus, and “lead”.”

    definitely worth an explicit thumbs up in itself.

    The business is something to be delegated to Bloom /or-according to marriage model desired/ operated by Bloom

    Liked by 2 people

  196. Spawny Get says:

    Hmm, a worrying development. I’m vibing with a sleep deprived Cill. And when he says sleep deprived he means it seriously.

    How’s the clean up going?

    Family’s places okay?

    Liked by 2 people

  197. Cill it was all moving very fast, for my comfort. He is a very high energy person and is used to managing complex and large problems, so I think he was up to the task, we have opposite skill sets that are very complementary. But opposites can also clash and I think there was the rub: he’s very logical and structured where I am a creative. He liked this about me, but I think in time it was also a rub. He’s all about process and order, I am more one to wing it. I will admit fully he had strengths where I was weak, we could be a great team if he could tolerate me and my style. and true, I was uncomfortable with the amount of debt he was proposing. It was an ambitious scope, a lot of stress (for me anyway, i think for him that complexity isnt stressful) on top of new marriage etc. and he wanted to start NOW even though all the balls had not fallen into place. He needed action. I can seem to be doing little as I wait until I can clearly see the goal then – bam! Ninja strike and I accomplish huge amounts in a short time. Unfortunately just days after he said ljbf those balls have dropped in and possibly even better and for much less than the unclear plan. And that expansion may yet happen, with investors who apparently like the cut of my jib and have been following me. (Of course more details needed.) Had we not had this spat, he’d be witnessing me in “shock and awe mode” now but because of the timing, he didnt. I do believe all happens for a reason. It doesn’t make total sense now but from past experience I know someday it will be more clear.

    Liked by 2 people

  198. Cill says:

    Spawny, “But if I got pissed and tackled him…I’d be being emotional, wouldn’t I?”
    Yup.

    And yet.. she needs the data, otherwise she might keep asking these questions ad infinitum.

    Liked by 2 people

  199. Cill says:

    Spawny, clean-up going well and you-know-who is a tower of strength. My parents’ floor-to-ceiling front window blew in, else family property damage was minimal. No loss of life or limb.

    It was a close shave for Godzone. Pam was the worst cyclone to hit the Pacific in recorded history – and that’s saying something.

    Liked by 2 people

  200. Cill says:

    Bloom, ” he wanted to start NOW even though all the balls had not fallen into place. He needed action.”

    One of the first things I do after arriving on site for a major project is find out who the assertive “start NOW” or “Go off half cock” personalities are, so I can kick their arses into shape so the team can go about their work.

    Like

  201. Cill says:

    I said, “she might keep asking these questions ad infinitum”

    That was not an attempt to shut you up, Bloom. You should keep asking your questions, get them out of your system. Keep asking.

    Liked by 1 person

  202. I didn’t take it that way Cill, I know you mean no harm. 🙂 I really appreciate the insight, you guys are helping me consider perspectives I had not thought of. I hope at some point we will be able to talk and clear the air.

    Liked by 1 person

  203. Cill says:

    CP “I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part!”

    CP, I believe I’ve already had that honor
    ( https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/exact-subject-hard-to-determine/comment-page-1/#comment-14483 )

    Like

  204. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “CP, I believe I’ve already had that honor”

    So, what? Are you saying it’s over? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

    Liked by 3 people

  205. Cill says:

    You’re a hard man, Spawny Get. You’ll keep 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  206. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I keep expecting Fuzzy to break in with the appropriate response, but I guess the bear is hibernating.

    Like

  207. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cautiously Pessimestic,
    The bear just got caught up on all the comments.
    I have to tell you that the Germans did not bomb Pearl Harbor. They had one, count them, one aircraft carrier and sold it to the Russians before the the war started. I think that naming it Deutscheland would have been a disaster for national morale had it been sunk.
    The Washington Naval Treaty didn’t limit aircraft carriers, that’s why Japan wnt wild building them.

    Like

  208. Spawny Get says:

    Next you’ll be denying that the Japanese massed troops at the Pas de Calais in preperation for invading us. Luckily the invasion barges were bombed by Monty Python and his Flying Circus.

    Like

  209. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I guess my old man was right. Fat, drunk, and quoting Animal House is no way to go through life.

    Liked by 2 people

  210. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    I am sorry to address you as Molly. I had just fired off an email to hesince we can’t communicate directly on this blog.

    You mentioned plans for the future for your enterprise and kept all the details secret. As Harrison Ford said in a movie, “Mysterious. I love a mystery.” The first thing that jumped into my head is that you know the location of Sir Fracis Drake’s treasure. It’s never been found. Maybe I have pirates on the brain.
    I think, bit by bit, you are recovering.
    This is for both you and Cill to play at the appropiate time.

    Like

  211. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Spawny Get,
    I needed that. That was a great image.
    In all seriousness, the greatst strategic weakness of the Axis was that they worked independently of each other with almost nocommunication. I think there was one Japanese liason officer in Berlin throughout the wat and he was a lieutenant.

    Liked by 1 person

  212. Yoda says:

    A new post there would be.

    Liked by 1 person

  213. @ Yoda what did I learn? Gosh, lots, off the top of my head:

    * Don’t jump to conclusions
    * Control my emotions better
    * Be understanding of past hurts but not tolerant of bad dynamics like jealousy
    * Its ok to ask to slow down if it feels too fast
    * Don’t apologize just to end the disagreement, seek understanding and to be understood
    * be rational, expect rationality
    * Choose the time and place for such discussions carefully, not when tired, hungry, worked up, etc.
    * Dont be so darn serious, put some sugar on it
    * Don’t dismiss spidey sense

    Lots more, that’s a start!

    Like

  214. SFC Ton says:

    What you should have learnt is any dude in that big of a rush is one sketchy mother fucker.

    Liked by 2 people

  215. True ton, you have a gift for cutting to the quick. I probably am doing way too much shoulda, woulda, coulda. That’s an issues for me, if that’s not obvious! It was way, way too fast. I couldn’t do it. I do wish I had said it more clearly, not sure it would have made a difference and maybe that’s what I was afraid of?

    Like

  216. And is this not what Deti said way back when? Beware “try wuv” girl! That belief leaves me wide open to stuff like this. Too good to be true. Mmmm cookies of regret and betrayal, yummy! Crunch, crunch, crunch. Gulp.

    Like

  217. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    You walked up to the table and threw the dice.

    Like

  218. SFC Ton says:

    To much second guessing not enough swinging that bat but it’s easier to second guess then walk back up to the plate.

    Liked by 1 person

  219. SFC Ton says:

    Which I believe to be an issue for smart folks more then us of average intelligence

    Like

  220. Ton I am printing out that what I should have learned quote and putting it all over my house!!!!

    I believe you may have a talent for life coaching, by golly!

    Liked by 1 person

  221. Cill says:

    “one sketchy mother fucker”
    What does this mean?

    Like

  222. @ Cill = untrustworthy, dishonest, conniving, bad character.

    Like

  223. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    sketchy: the most generous interpretation is ‘uncertain motives’. More generally, it means ‘scum’.

    Like

  224. The alleged “sketchy m’fer” wants to get together Friday for a beer, to talk about putting things on hold for now and “being friends.” Part of me wants the closure, part of me wants to show up and slap him! Ug. Ok guys, what say thee? Yes? No? Advice on attitude?

    Oh look, cookies of regret and betrayal, yum!

    Like

  225. SFC Ton says:

    No advantage or profit in meeting him
    This is bullshit he is doing so he can feel like he is one the good guys

    Liked by 1 person

  226. Spawny Get says:

    Does ‘sketchy’ mean the same as ‘a bit woo, a bit wah’?

    Like

  227. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Quite apart from whether it’s a good idea or bad idea, go all in, or not at all. Anything in between delays the inevitable (like that which doesn’t kill me). I suspect, though, that this is my “good or bad, get it over with” nature talking. If I’m in the minority, best go with the majority.

    Liked by 1 person

  228. Spawny Get says:

    I’d want the data, but I’d go with my logical head on.

    Liked by 2 people

  229. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I’m pretty sure sketchy is the same as dodgy, for the heathen motherland.

    Liked by 1 person

  230. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    Hr doesn’t get to put you in the “friend zone”. In this video, Karen Straughan tells of her own struggle to avoid the friend zone with her boyfriend. You should watch the whole video, lots of information. This video made me furious with her because she offered no solutions for “nice guys”. She just left them to flap in the reeze.

    Liked by 1 person

  231. Cill says:

    Spawny, “I’d want the data, but I’d go with my logical head on.”
    Yup.

    Bloom, I’d want the data for future reference. Data is intelligence, power. If he’s not forthcoming, or it heads for a squabble, bail and don’t look back. Any sign he’s not going to be honest and straight with you, bail outta there, completely out, no “just friends”, and be grateful you escaped a bad deal.

    Liked by 1 person

  232. Cill says:

    I retract my earlier suggestion.

    Don’t see him yet. It’s too early. Give it a much bigger break, then when you’re sure you’re emotionally over him, get the data. If you can’t be sure your emotions won’t get the better of you, don’t see him at all, now or ever. The phone records stuff was a deal breaker. All I’d want the data for is future reference. To me that sort of info is valuable, but it might not be to you.

    Don’t agree to meet him yet. Politely point out it’s far too soon, or you don’t want to meet him again, depending on whether the data has any value to you.

    Liked by 1 person

  233. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    Iwould go with Cill’s second suggestion. Two days from now is too soon. You’re still hurting and you’re still vulnerable.

    Liked by 1 person

  234. Yoda says:

    Wisdom above there is.

    Like

  235. I agree, I think I might be tempted to do all I could to patch things up, getting the ljbf again would only add insult to injury. I need to heal, perspective.

    I happened to be near the jewler where he got my ring, unfortunately the return is 60 days, 90 for in store credit. It’s past both. I feel really bad. I guess the cost of cold feet? Sucky. I know I don’t want the ring if its not the one I will wear for the rest of my life. I guess I will give it back, he can figure it out? Sucky. I know he spent close to $5000. On credit. (Red flag!!!!)

    Like

  236. Ton forgive this completely self indulgent moment but ….. Why?????? Wtf.

    Like

  237. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    Why do you still have the ring? If it’s because he has been afraid to come into contact, I see. This modifies my advice. You need to see him to give it back.
    I had heard that about jewllers. They have to know that some of these sales will fail through nofault of theirs or anyone, for that matter.

    Like

  238. theasdgamer says:

    Bloom, send him the ring via a trustworthy 3rd party. Wait a few months before seeing him again. You’ll know when you’ve accepted the breakup. My 0.02.

    Liked by 3 people

  239. Cill says:

    It’s a pity asd’s suggestion re return of ring wouldn’t work with getting data as well – i.e. get some man you know and trust to speak to the bloke and get the data… Damn, I just know it could be done…

    Liked by 1 person

  240. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    You’re just curious to know how it got broken. That it is broken is paramount, how it got that way is incidental.Since we’re all pretty sure it’s not on Bloom, it won’t help her.

    Like

  241. SFC Ton says:

    The solution for nice guys is to butch the fuck up Nancy pants. Even if he elects to go his own way he needs to.butch the fuck up

    Why, Bloom? I already said why, so he can preserve his image as one of the good guys. Like a woman he wants to garner sympathy etc from his friends and family and to control the narrative for the next girl he pulls that shit on.

    Not sure myself that there is data left to gather. Fucked up people are fucked up and generally fucked up for no discernable reasons. Learn to spot the tells, and keep the investment low

    As for the ring, sell the damn thing and use the proceeds to buy something cool. Like…new exhaust for a Yahmma Raider.

    Like

  242. Cill says:

    “Not sure myself that there is data left to gather”
    There always is. Even Big Red gives me data.

    Like

  243. You guys have been amazingly sympathetic considering you could have all just sided w him as mtgtow and said awalt and cheered him on. That says a lot about you! Maybe he has become the latest mtgtow. I still have the ring because we haven’t seen each other since last week. (Except for the brief accidental crossing as he was dropping things off and I was leaving and he wouldn’t look at me, I didn’t have it on me at the time.) I agree it’s probably too soon. And that Ton is right, it might help him feel ok about all this but I am not sure it will help me. I think gamer is right too, wait until I am firmly and 100% ok w the ljbf idea myself. I would like the data but I am not sure he understands or could be totally honest about why this is happening himself. I can get the ring back to him safely via a third party. I will have to find closure within, I know if I see him now I will push to reconcile even if that makes no sense and is not in my best interest. Just to stop feeling all this.

    Liked by 3 people

  244. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cill

    Women’s data not = men’s data

    Women need subliminal messages more than verbal content (which men need). Bloom wants to know ex’s emotional state. She wants to check on her emotional investment (bad idea).

    In a breakup, it helps to think of the other person as the ex even before you can accept the breakup. You can’t force your own acceptance of the breakup, but you can facilitate it and make it less painful.

    Liked by 1 person

  245. theasdgamer says:

    You guys have been amazingly sympathetic

    Warning Will Robinson! You are on a dangerous path! A feminine object is attempting to pull you into its gravitational field and compel you into a regular path about it.

    I press the alpha button which applies the PUA hyperdrive to escape orbit. (The beta button will only apply ionic system thrusters which lack the force needed to escape the gravitational pull of the feminine object.)

    Like

  246. thedeti says:

    My two cents are to see him as soon as you can and find out exactly where you both stand. Give him the ring back. Do your data gathering, draw what conclusions you can based on the knowledge you now have, and do your best to put it behind you.

    Liked by 1 person

  247. Spawny Get says:

    “Warning Will Robinson! You are on a dangerous path! A feminine object is attempting to pull you into its gravitational field and compel you into a regular path about it.”

    I see what you’re saying, BUT the problem isn’t in what she’s saying. Because what she’s saying is objectively true

    You guys have been amazingly sympathetic considering you could have all just sided w him as mtgtow and said awalt and cheered him on. That says a lot about you!

    We have been and we could have and it does.

    The potential problem is in the response, I think. And my learned default reaction to such statements is to logically look at them to see if they’re true. And maybe note the behaviour as being that of a nice person. And consider if it’s perhaps the actions of someone (not just a woman) looking to manipulate me.

    I already thought that Bloom was a nice person, she’s taken a pounding from guys on the red-pill issues (including back on J4G from me. I wasn’t personal, I just iirc insisted that on a manosphere blog we ought to be able to have a male toned conversation – she made no drama, she agreed – subject done afaiwc). I have been careful to be fair but not go white knighting (am I wrong about that?).

    She could have commented here anyway, but I thought she was genuinely looking to understand the red-pill. I think she’s looking to understand men a little better in order to do a deal with a suitable guy where they have a more traditional relationship. And if she finds such a suitable, willing red-pill but wanting a traditionalish relationship man…best of luck to them both. May they both honour the deal. I have never been about laying down What Men Must Do, or women for that matter (just If you’re going to BLT, leave me the fuck alone).

    Not all men are going to find MGTOW acceptable. That’s fine by me. As a secondary mission of the blog, I’d like to help NAWALT women find the men that are going to go and do something as dumb as get the law involved in their relationship.

    Liked by 2 people

  248. Lol Will Robinson. I actually meant that! You guys are alright.

    This is tough but I’ll be ok. I do appreciate the feedback and advice, truly.

    Liked by 1 person

  249. jf13 says:

    re: “putting things on hold for now and “being friends.””

    Far be it from me to think I know what I’m talking about, but just recently I’ve been reading quite a number of stories from women saying that it was the man who wanted to ljbf. I’ve never seen that irl, but more improtantly this development comes on the heels of years, decades really, of women denying that the ljbf phenomenon existed!

    Like

  250. jf13 yeah, I am not sure what that’s about. My spidey sense says bad idea…

    Liked by 1 person

  251. jf13 says:

    Traditionally, the entire purpose of the ring was to make the man less likely to walk away from the woman. Traditionally, if you really want to do the he-man she-woman thing, the woman gets to keep the ring if he walks away. I repeat, that was the ENTIRE purpose of the ring.

    Liked by 2 people

  252. theasdgamer says:

    @ Bloom

    I’m sure that you did mean it sincerely. Nevertheless, my observation is that you are seeking both comfort and validation due to your feminine wiring. You can get comfort from other women or from men. Men will meet both needs. If they are orbiters, they will provide comfort and validation longer.

    My wiring is to detect feminine attempts to procure comfort and validation from me and attempts to pull me into orbit. (I have always been allergic to orbiter status.) My alarm went off and I took a look at what was going on. I posted what I saw and added humor to make it more palatable. My post was for discussion purposes and not a hit at you at all.

    Liked by 1 person

  253. theasdgamer says:

    Just to be even-handed here, I have no doubt that Liz posts here to get validation as well as intellectual stimulation. (Validation from the attention of men.) I don’t expect that Liz will object to this observation about her. I will be surprised if she does.

    Liked by 1 person

  254. theasdgamer says:

    @ Spawney

    I don’t think that deliberate manipulation is involved–it’s just normal male-female relations which always involve a bit of grappling and testing. This is an excellent opportunity for people like Fuzzy and Cill to see what is going on and learn about themselves and women.

    Liked by 2 people

  255. jf13 says:

    I’ve got to admit,despite having beta orbited I don’t think I’ve ever been ljbf-ded per se, but I did ljbf some in the past few years. This isn’t to say I didn’t have a lot of women friends, but in the past when I was available then women to whom I overtly expressed attraction fairly universally felt the need to ensure I knew I wasn’t wanted.

    Like

  256. jf13 says:

    I’m rather curious as to the usual procedure for a woman ljbf-ing a man. Does she usually wait until he makes a move, then shoots him down gently (see, this shooting down gently is what’s outside my scope of experience)? Or does she tend to preemptively say “You do know I’m never going to like you in THAT way, right?” before he does anything?

    Like

  257. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf13 with the shifty Italian eyes

    I’ve seen both ad hoc and preemptive LJBFs. Some are 5h1t-tests.

    Like

  258. jf13 says:

    Come to think of it, I’m sure I’ve received preemptive ljbfs, but they were behavioral not verbal.

    Like

  259. alana says:

    @jf13: I’ve watched enough judge judy episodes to know that in most US states, the engagement ring is given in contemplation of marriage, thus must be returned if the engagement is broken. Unless the guy explicitly says she can keep it, which some men do.

    I really doubt Bloom was even considering keeping it though. :p

    Like

  260. alana says:

    Although it may be a teensy bit tempting to keep the ring when u feel the other person’s being a jerk 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  261. Spawny Get says:

    Around ‘ere the ring was supposed to be 1 month’s pay (or was it 3?) and it was hers to keep if he breached the contract to get married. Bit outdated now. I suppose it was financial compensation if she gave up the goodies before the wedding back when ‘the goodies’ only got given away once before being much reduced in value.

    I would give the ring back
    1) because I actually think it’s the right thing to do
    2) it removes an opportunity for him to be sore about the ring
    3) it removes an opportunity for him to bitch to others about it (reassuring the next guy)
    4) it shows non-vindictive behaviour from Bloom (reassuring the next guy)

    The fact he’ll take a hit on it is something I’ll let Bloom decide on in private – no judgement either way. He has been an idiot. Whether he’s been a malicious idiot is not for me to determine.

    Liked by 1 person

  262. jf13 says:

    re: the goodies = 1 month’s pay

    I think we’ve established the ballpark of the price.

    Like

  263. @ Jf13 and Alana, I think you are both correct. In days gone by the engagement ring was a sort of dowry for the women “going off the market.” In those days an engagement, and a broken engagement, were serious business (as was marriage.) In today’s MMP, I think a lot of people view the engagement period as a “trial run” and not an actual commitment. Many see marriage that way as well, as we have discussed here at length. Something that really upsets me now is I viewed the engagement (and marriage) as a solemn promise, and now a promise broken to myself and my children. We all believed in him, attached to him, bonded to him, trusted him. That was not something I took lightly AT ALL. I tried to slow things down, it was his reassurances that he was all in, and his actions which at the time also demonstrated that, that I moved forward. I would not have taken those steps if I suspected he was one to walk away from his word. I intellectually know it is far better for me to find out this is his real view of engagement/marriage now, despite his former “in it for life” protests to the contrary. If he is going to break our engagement over IMHO fixable and workable issues, it would have been the same in marriage. My heart, of course, does not see all this as clearly. Maybe he got cold feet. Maybe he started reading red pill blogs, too. Who knows. But I do know I am not ok with what he has done and I am very disappointed that he is apparently is not who he portrayed himself to be.

    Liked by 2 people

  264. As for the ring, that’s why I stopped in at the jewelry store. I was hoping I would be able to return it to them. My plan now is to return the ring to him, but not mention I know about the return policy (too awkward). He can look into that and what his other options are for himself. If I had made this decision, I would actually feel that I should make it right, financially. In this case, he made the decision, the consequences of that are his to figure out.

    Liked by 1 person

  265. thedeti says:

    The legalities of the engagement ring in the US are:

    The promise to marry is a legal oral contract. Man gives ring to woman as “consideration” for the marriage promise.

    If woman breaks engagement, she must return the ring. She didn’t keep her promise, so she must return the “consideration” as having been not fully “earned”.

    If man breaks engagement, she gets to keep the ring as a “consolation prize”. She kept her promise, he didn’t. So he must pay the “consideration” to her as legal damages.

    Liked by 1 person

  266. thedeti says:

    obviously it might be different from state to state. None of this is legal advice, of course. That’s just a description of the usual way this is handled legally, at the old English common law and in most US states, which has its legal roots in English common law.

    Like

  267. curious says:

    @ thedeti,

    Does she get to keep her vagina if she breaks the engagement? Of course if he breaks the engagement she keeps the thing attached. What do you think?

    Like

  268. Even though I could, I don’t want to keep the ring or to try to sell it. Money is not as important to me as principles and personal integrity. I’ll take the high road, a path I much prefer. Maybe earn some karma points maybe not, but at least I walk away with my self worth intact. I can put back on my favorite ring, a vintage Navajo turquoise one I bought for myself when I was single on Valentine’s Day a few years back, as a promise to myself to never settle for any less than all in again. This sucks, but is much better than another divorce.

    Liked by 2 people

  269. * I was going to return the ring and have it credited to his account, not get the money myself…in case that wasn’t clear.

    Like

  270. Spawny Get says:

    It wasn’t clear, but it was what I’d concluded

    Liked by 1 person

  271. @ curious, lol. Um yes, I do plan to keep THAT. 😉

    Like

  272. Cill says:

    Return the ring via a reliable third party as asd suggested up there ^^^ somewhere.
    Don’t meet the man yourself, to return the ring. It’s too soon.

    If I were in your shoes I’d meet him face to face, but I’m not a woman and I don’t understand your emotions. I don’t know what you might do. I suggest, don’t be hasty. It’s too soon for you to see him now.

    Liked by 1 person

  273. @ Fuzzie I realized I forgot to answer your question about the buried treasure. No, I wish. there is a rumor that the couple who originally built my place had a stash of gold buried under a tree somewhere and that when they needed money, they would dig it up. Maybe someday I will find that! Sure would be nice. I have on more than one occasion had money seemingly manifest out of nowhere exactly when needed. Either a unexpected job opportunity, a gift from a generous person who is like minded, or some other windfall. I never ask, it just happens. There are certainly bad people in this world, but there are also many very kindhearted ones. You’d think after having that happen so many times, I would start to have faith that my get up and show up and the details will work out along the way plan that’s worked well so far. Being single and self employed, I do worry about money quite a bit on the day to day, but money overall, being rich, trading my soul for money, etc. None of that really motivates or interests me. Having enough is good, security is good, but much more than that is not a driver for me. If I was rich I would be an active philanthropist, play it forward, not hoard it. You can’t take it with you and it’s not what really matters in this life, material goods are far less important than relationships and love. IMHO anyway.

    Liked by 1 person

  274. @ Cill after sleeping on it, I agree. I am too vulnerable right now. Giving him the ring back personally would be too emotional. We have some friends in common. I can return it via one of them. I am going to turn my attention inward, focus on some self love and rebuilding. Maybe in the future, after that healing is done. But not now. Maybe once the healing is done, I will no longer feel the need to know why, but will be at peace with it being what it is. Hopefully someday I will find my somebody, if I focus on being the best I can be then I will be ready when that day comes. I would like that to happen. In the meantime I have my children, my friends, my business — a full and exciting life on its own. People have suggested I should consider just being single for life or until my kids are grown but my spidey sense doesn’t gel with that. I am a relationship person, despite the difficulties and complexity and all the rest that can bring. It’s worth it, to me.

    Liked by 2 people

  275. Alana says:

    Thanks for the info, Deti.

    Legalities aside, I agree with Spawny and Bloom that it’s much better to return the ring, especially since it wasn’t one of those Very Long Engagements–which I don’t recommend.

    Bloom, I agree that one should view an engagement as a “solemn promise”, only to be broken in very rare circumstances, like discovering the partner was cheating or secretly hiding a mountain of debt etc. It’s disappointing to find that some people don’t see it that way.

    I still hope, for your sake, that soon he’ll at least reach the stage where he can talk to u maturely about what happened. At least for closure for both of u, like u’ve mentioned u would like. But whether or not he does do that, remember that u’re gonna be ok in time.

    Liked by 2 people

  276. I went and bounced this whole tale off a professional I see here and there when making important life choices. His take was no more ex fiancée. Take a complete break, reflect, review. No meeting him until I am over it. He said, as many of you did, the signs are not good. And they are issues not likely to ever go away, w no amount of reassurance. He said it would most likely get very very bad were it to continue. Stay far far away. Sounds good to me! Myife is too complicated for all that! Feeling much much better.

    Like

  277. He also said this type wants to move quickly bc they can only hold themselves together so long. The unravelling has begun. It will never be the same good thing it seemed again. Whew! All for the best.

    Like

  278. Cill says:

    He must be an excellent professional then, because his views coincide with those of most of us here!

    Liked by 3 people

  279. Lol I told him that very thig! He laughed at Ton’s “shady mo f’er” quote, said that was exactly right and also the part about how or why he is this way is less impt than just realizing he is and staying away.

    Liked by 1 person

  280. SFC Ton says:

    Someone can become a professional dishing out such basic advice?

    Liked by 3 people

  281. Yep ton! Apparently you are a natural, too! Like you said most people over think it. They know the truth but then make the mistake of not trusting their gut and rationalizing it away, doing the opposite of their gut. You could charge them $$$ to set them straight!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  282. Poseidon says:

    redpillchick:

    Consider becoming (CGYOW), Chick Go Your Own Way. I’m a strain of MGTOW. I have a wonderful son who I share custody of. Otherwise I mostly keep to myself. Kinda like Spawney described himself, I entertain myself in a variety of ways.

    Liked by 3 people

  283. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    In your comment about talking to a professional, I heard echos of Tara Palmatier. Men can be BPD/high conflict too. Maybe you did dodge a bullet. One of the point that she repeatedly makes is that they can’t keep the facade up long. After that, they never return to the one you fell for.

    Liked by 1 person

  284. @ fuzzie I thought that very same thing about TP when he said that. A male version perhaps?

    Like

  285. SFC Ton says:

    Being a life long NCO means lots of mentoring. Cannot see myself taking money for something mature men should do as a matter of course

    Liked by 1 person

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