It Has Come to This


Over at Dalrock’s there is a post

How much should a husband share with his wife?

 It asks the question of how much of the problems that a man might be having in his life (e.g. at work, with his buddies) can be shared with the wife.

Much of the discussion there is about how a man has to calibrate how he handles this issue such that he finds the Goldilocks solution.  This is difficult for him to find, and probably a moving target at that.  He is supposed to be the stoic rock, but he is also supposed to share his feelings (which reveals weakness).  And if he does not share information, and she eventually finds out, then the trust issue is brought to the fore. This is pretty much a no-win situation, which seems to be par for the course with respect to relations with modern women.

And of course, there is the Sword of Damocles hanging over the head of the typical modern man.  If he does not gauge how to handle the above situation, he might be on the path to contempt (from her perspective) and then to divorce.  Full disclosure — this scenario played a factor in my divorce.

This situation is ludicrous.   With respect to my parents, this never would have happened.  My Dad was somewhat stoic, but he did discuss issues with my Mom.  He could do this because my Mom was committed no matter what.  There was no sword hanging over his head.

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Posted in FarmBoy, Feminism, Marriage
70 comments on “It Has Come to This
  1. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    Unless this thread goes off topic very quickly, it won’t go far because you nailed it in your last paragraph.
    You are right. Most of this trepidation from men is the result of being insecure about the wife’s commitment.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Tarnished says:

    “This situation is ludicrous.”

    Agreed. A relationship *should* be the one place a man and woman have each others backs, aren’t afraid of discussing their dreams/fears, and remain strong for their partner during times of weakness or pain. The fact that stupid games and shit tests are now par for the course instead is just a measure of how far we’ve fallen.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Spawny Get says:

    One of the documentaries i background watched today was about the Empire State Building’s building. So interviews of old people abounded. What struck me was the genuine love and affection between some of the old couples. You could just see it. There was loyalty from the woman to her man even while he was no longer able to do the caveman act.

    Can’t find it on YouTube now, will try tomorrow

    Like

  4. Yoda says:

    Up late the Patriarch is.

    Like

  5. Spawny Get says:

    Au contraire, early it is. Good night!

    Like

  6. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Spaqwny Get,
    Those old couples were married through the Great Depression. They had to rely on the other. No wiggle room for any one upmanship or tricks.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. Sumo says:

    The Mighty Sumo only shares what he needs to in order to get laid. Anything else is redundant.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Liz says:

    I’ve been married over two decades and my husband has never had to put on a caveman act. It’s something I’d never even thought about before reading the sphere…and I’m absolutely CERTAIN it’s something he has never thought about. He “shares” everything with me (exception classified information obviously).

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Liz says:

    This is actually one of the “weirder” concepts in the sphere to me. I just can’t believe I’m that much different from everyone else. I’ve heard a lot that “it’s exhausting to keep up a front, but I have to…”
    A marriage based on faux posturing and deception for whatever reason would seem to me a failure in progress. Obviously the resentment is going to build if you can’t discuss anything or share anything substantial with your partner. And if you have to turn to your “bros” for support during hardship wtf point is a spouse anyway?

    Liked by 3 people

  10. Liz says:

    Here is the problem (sorry for the triple post, it’s early and my thoughts are skattered):
    We seem to have abandoned the concept of family. When a man and woman marry they become a family. Family means they’re supposed to be a cohesive support unit.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. SFC Ton says:

    On top of.what Sumo wrote
    Whatever you share with a woman will be used against you at some other date. Not could be but will be.
    There is simply no value in sharing anything with her but a bed.

    Besides, what type of man feels the need to share, emote etc.etc. It’s bad form and then some

    Like

  12. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    “I’ve been married over two decades and my husband has never had to put on a caveman act. It’s something I’d never even thought about before reading the sphere…and I’m absolutely CERTAIN it’s something he has never thought about. He “shares” everything with me…”

    If I could like this more than once, I would. Describes mine to a T as well…he’s told me just about anything, never shys away from questions, and doesn’t hide how he thinks/feels about various situations. Seen him laugh, seen him cry, seen him depressed and angry. It’s almost like he’s a person or something… 😉

    Liked by 2 people

  13. Liz says:

    Thanks Tarn. 🙂

    I wonder if it’s the INTJ/ENFP just “clicks” together thing? The whole “man can’t share with his partner” subject always gives me the impression I’m posting on another planet or something. How do you build a life with someone you can’t trust in a moment of depression or emotional weakness? How do you build a life with a person who has no concept of loyalty? It’s very hard for me to understand…to me it goes against the concept of family.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. SFC Ton says:

    You.don’t build a life with her; she is a fragment of your life

    Let’s face it, men have been to.told share etc with their wives for sometime now and the divorce rate is still insanely high. If sharing etc worked the divorce rate would be lower. That some small minority of women might possibly operate differently( & it’s possible they do and it’s also possible they only think they do) dose not change the reality on the ground.

    As for not being like that, maybe she is not like that or maybe her man manages her well enough she thinks she is not like that when in fact she is and maybe she is just delusional.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Tarnished says:

    Sadly, it doesn’t go against my concept of family, it upholds it. 😦
    But it goes 100% against my concept of friendship, which is far more important (in my life, mileage differs for others). Such ideas are rather normal for the marriages my mom and dad have been in and out of, but the point is…they *shouldn’t* be.

    Like

  16. Tarnished says:

    “I wonder if it’s the INTJ/ENFP just “clicks” together thing?”

    I think there is definitely something to be said for complementary personalities working well together.

    Like

  17. theasdgamer says:

    Can a wife really handle everything?

    Liz, I suspect that if Mike told you that he had bonded with another woman unintentionally, but was fighting it, you would accuse him of cheating emotionally.

    The key stanza for me is “who doesn’t even care any more.”

    Like

  18. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “Whatever you share with a woman will be used against you at some other date.”

    Exactly. Any strengths will be minimized, any weaknesses will be exploited. Waking up from the Blue Pill required what amounted to a counter-intelligence operation against my wife until I reached the point that I no longer cared enough to be (as) vulnerable. Stoicism is the way to go. When pressed, just talk about random technical minutiae until she loses interest. Or go riding for a while.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Yoda says:

    Different views there are.
    Trust much of the issue is.
    Worthy of trust modern women are?

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Yoda says:

    “Whatever you share with a woman will be used against you at some other date.”

    Often after for a sammich you do ask.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Spawny Get says:

    “And if you have to turn to your “bros” for support during hardship wtf point is a spouse anyway?”
    PREXACTLY.

    That is precisely, exactly the reason that MGTOW exists. It’s not that I believe AWALT, I don’t. But I do believe that a lot of marriages are precariously balanced on his managing her…and I am not remotely interested in having what amounts to a child in such a legally dangerous position in my life.

    And I’m not sure how many women that are NAWALTs can prove that they’re NAWALT…so you’re left with hunting unicorns. And hunting unicorns seems a very poor investment of your life.

    Liked by 2 people

  22. Spawny Get says:

    “Worthy of trust modern women are?”

    That’s a major issue and I believe that some are (NAWALT)

    BUT

    What’s in it for the guy to take the risk? What does she bring to the table that makes the gamble worth taking?

    You’re betting your financial well being, your house, the lives of your kids, risking FDV accusations to grease the divorce wheels, putting up with her moods, her wasting money on changing the house according to the latest fashion, and the cars, subsidising her life, paying off her debts VS sex (no guarantees), maybe having kids that might be yours and you might keep contact for their childhood, maybe she keeps her looks up, especially maybe after kids

    WTF?

    Marriage is dying…no shit, Sherlock

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Spawny Get says:

    “I think there is definitely something to be said for complementary personalities working well together.”

    I thought so too, but now I’m divorced because she believed in emoting not reasoning.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Spawny Get says:

    “Besides, what type of man feels the need to share, emote etc.etc. It’s bad form and then some”

    I’ve had use for getting pissed and having some kicking ideas around sessions with a couple of male friends (occasionally) through the years. I still took the decisions, but it helped to expand the options. Don’t remember doing that with the missus, for the reason that she was too young to bring much to the table with experience, and I was teh smarter (except for getting married – FML).

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Tarnished says:

    Re: Marriage

    No offense intended to Liz whatsoever, but I agree with Spawny…it’s dead.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. theasdgamer says:

    @ Spawny

    I thought so too, but now I’m divorced because she believed in emoting not reasoning.

    Maybe women aren’t naturally inclined to control their emotions, but can be trained to do so. Maybe feminism has inhibited training women to control their emotions.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. theasdgamer says:

    @ Spawny

    I was comparing my own reasoning/emoting with Mrs. Gamer’s. I have strong emotions (Celtic heritage, go figure) but can control them pretty well (maybe due to my Anglo heritage?).

    Like

  28. Yoda says:

    “Whatever you share with a woman will be used against you at some other date.”

    A test this could be.
    If use it against you, then for herself she us.
    If not use against you, for the “unit” she is.

    Kind of like old test for witches it is.
    Many men drown they would.
    Good this would be not.

    Like

  29. jf12 says:

    @SFC Ton, re: “Whatever you share with a woman will be used against you at some other date. Not could be but will be.”

    Yes. But, the Goldilocks adherents will insist, that’s why the man has to be *strong* as well as vulnerable. He has to be strong enough to survive his wife’s attacks on his revealed vulernabilities. See?

    Like

  30. Yoda says:

    Lesson here there may be.
    Unless totally commited she is, trust her not.
    Unfortunate this is.

    If only a system existed with this problem lessened it was?

    Like

  31. Liz says:

    “Can a wife really handle everything?”

    Can anyone handle everything?
    People with tourette’s syndrome have trouble holding a job and keeping friends because a little finesse is necessary for human social contact. False dichotomy.

    How can you leave your child with a person you can’t trust? My kids mean as lot more to me, and I’m assuming most other people too, than all the money I have in the bank. That level of trust goes far beyond a bank account or sharing a bathroom sink, car, or even house. My husband is gone all the time, it’s a job requirement. If he couldn’t trust me enough to “let his guard down” as a human how on earth could he trust me with our children?

    Like

  32. Spawny Get says:

    Gamer, generally I agree with you over emotions. Getting older maturerer I have found that emotions used as motivation can still be useful – seek happiness, seek new interests, new challenges etc. But keep them out of decision making.

    I’m not sure that I’m ‘normal’ enough Anglo to comment on the racial stuff. I did seriously consider working in Eire ten years ago but the Euro exchange rate at the time made me very expensive for them. A few years later that changed, I headed to France instead. The decisions were timing based TBH. Neither country is famed for their pro-English attitudes, but I managed to rub along in France very happily despite the extra language barrier.

    Like

  33. Yoda says:

    it’s dead

    “It’s dead, Jim” from you expected I would

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Yoda says:

    how on earth could he trust me with our children?

    Children provide leverage they do.
    Potential flow of cash they do provide.
    An investment to be protected they are.

    Like

  35. Spawny Get says:

    My issue regarding a wife is that good, or bad, we’re supposed to be on the same team. Complementary, hopefully. It’s the trust issue that’s central, not that we’re equal in ability.

    I can see why Liz makes a good wife. I can see why feminist hate-pots seeking oppression in her partner’s every action and attitude do not.

    Liked by 1 person

  36. Spawny Get says:

    New post up BTW – politics in England and Scotland though, so no need to change anyone else’s schedule.

    Like

  37. jf12 says:

    re: trust

    For example, a woman could be careful and mindful with her children, with her job, with her friends, and still deliberately fail to uphold her end of the bargain in marriage.

    Like

  38. jf12 says:

    Ye olde patriarchal version of hearth and home is that the man stumbles in exhausted from his labors, and the wife helps him pull off his boots and put his feet up on the footstool. “Ah!”, he would sigh, “a man’s home is ‘is castle. It’s the one place I can be meself.”

    But nowadays, too often the way a wife is being “herself” is being a shrew.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Yoda says:

    My issue regarding a wife is that good, or bad, we’re supposed to be on the same team. Complementary, hopefully. It’s the trust issue that’s central, not that we’re equal in ability.

    Makes sense this does.
    Therefore rejected it will be.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. Yoda says:

    “Ah!”, he would sigh, “a man’s home is ‘is castle. It’s the one place I can be meself.”

    More careful around the home he must be compared to work.
    Significant this is as work a PC environment it is.

    Like

  41. SFC Ton says:

    “Can anyone handle everything?”

    Yep the word you are looking for here is man/ men. If he cannot handle his shit he isn’t much of a man. No matter how bad that shit is and let’s face it, most of the shit people need to handle is most def 1st world problems.

    Are women worthy of trust…. what kind of trust are you talking about? I have a fair amount of trust in women but it’s not of the uplifting variety. When you need her the most,like while you’re dying of cancer, is when you can trust her to turn on you.

    Like

  42. chokingonredpills says:

    Being a man who is sensitive and can get emotional easily (trying to learn how to control them), I’ve seen disrespect, fear and nonchalance on the faces of women (who are just friends) whom I’ve “emoted” to.

    This may be anecdotal but I’m fully convinced that an emotional man (much less a spouse or a beau) is something that a woman detests seeing.

    Like

  43. Yoda says:

    an emotional man is something that a woman detests seeing.

    Upper hand women do have.
    Avoid doing this men must.

    Liked by 1 person

  44. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz

    I perceive that your answer is, “I’m not sure, but probably not. At least we’d have a VERY serious discussion.”

    My degree of bonding was 3/10, in my estimation. Enough to be concerned enough to cut the bond. 1/10 was easily dealt with.

    I suspect that Mike doesn’t tell you anything that he doesn’t think that you could handle even if he can handle it just fine.

    So, the conclusion we come to is that a man is responsible for filtering out things his wife can’t handle and knowing what she can and can’t handle. Kind of like the way we treat children, n’est-ce pas?

    Like

  45. theasdgamer says:

    Following on my conclusion, women can’t be relied on in a relationship for anything serious that involves their emotions which would require treating them like children and being protected from cold, hard facts.

    Like

  46. I just spent a pretty white knuckle week watching my fiancé struggle w all this. He started to focus on a issue that while important was by no means a deal breaker. After awhile I could see the issue wasn’t the real issue, it was more about struggling against past experience if being frivorced and fleeced. We managed to walk through it but he very nearly jumped ship. For all the reason Spawney lays out above. Again if you all had not helped me understand things from the male pov, I am not sure I would have been able to get where he was coming from.

    Like

  47. jf12 says:

    New research on activating the Mate Ejection Module.
    http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2015-08582-001

    Can anyone find the text online?

    Like

  48. theasdgamer says:

    @ RPG

    What if a woman has issues from her past having to do with an ex-bf’s infidelity? Should she deal with those issues or let them cause a current non-deal-breaking issue become a deal breaker?

    Did your fiancé make progress dealing with his past?

    Like

  49. Liz says:

    “I suspect that Mike doesn’t tell you anything that he doesn’t think that you could handle even if he can handle it just fine.

    So, the conclusion we come to is that a man is responsible for filtering out things his wife can’t handle and knowing what she can and can’t handle. Kind of like the way we treat children, n’est-ce pas?”

    I’m not going to overshare theasdgamer, and it’s anyone’s guess (yours, mine, random people on the web) whether or not he would tell me something I can’t handle. I’ve certainly been told information (different sorts, through the years together) that most objective observers would determine to be a lot more “difficult to take” than what you’ve described above, and I handled it just fine.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Spawny Get says:

    I think maybe the refinement required is that maybe the hubby shouldn’t share issues that wifey can’t handle and wifey won’t think that hubby can handle.

    If wifey thinks hubby is super competent, then hubby can pretty much share everything.

    Liked by 2 people

  51. Yoda says:

    If wifey thinks hubby is super competent

    Fragile this assessment might be.
    Be careful he must.

    Like

  52. Yoda says:

    I’m not going to overshare

    Never happens in these parts this does.

    Like

  53. Tarnished says:

    I’ll admit to not telling my love various things about my past, but it’s not because I do not think he could handle the information. It’s that I don’t want him to have to handle it. He knows the basics…just not all the details.

    However, if he outright asked me, I’d tell him.

    Like

  54. thedeti says:

    to me, what’s going on here has to do with how attracted the women commenting on this issue are to their husbands.

    Liz and Tarnished are, from what I can tell, quite attracted. That makes commitment for them much easier. That in turn means that when their hubbies/SOs “share their emotions”, it doesn’t set off alarms or cause insecurities or make them think “OMIGODI’mgonnadiewe’regonnadieInevershouldamarriedthisguyweregonnalosethehousewe’regonna goonwelfarewhataboutmewhataboutthekids”

    So it’s really a function of how attracted she is, her overall character, how committed she is to the relationship, and what her options are.

    If him “sharing his emotions” is busting up and threatening a marriage, it is for the same reason it always is– because she isn’t attracted to him or she is LESS attracted to him than to the men she slept with before she married him.

    Liked by 2 people

  55. Spawny Get says:

    “It’s that I don’t want him to have to handle it. He knows the basics…just not all the details.”
    Also…would him knowing help you in anyway, even if it didn’t hurt him? I (as a distant friend) kind of doubt it.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. Spawny Get says:

    Gamer, I also think that those wot you mention have a concept of loyalty…just saying

    Like

  57. @ gamer yes I think so, or he’s at least aware now of where all that was coming from. It was difficult but once we broke thru I feel we are now closer than ever. It rattled my cage too, to think he could walk away over a seemingly very workable issue. You would think after going through a divorce the odds would decrease bc of the experience but it’s the opposite, after one divorce the odds of another are 60%, after two its 73%! We talked about all of that and reaffirmed that we are both on the same page – walking away instead of working it out can’t be an option. It just can’t…

    Like

  58. Tarnished says:

    It might a little, just to be able to talk about all of it. But he has a gentle heart…sometimes I think even more so than my own. I’m certainly the more cynical of the two of us, because I don’t trust people the way he can.

    Like

  59. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz

    I’m trying to relate what you’re saying with my own experience where the rubber meets the road. I’ve figured out that Mrs. Gamer is projecting from her past onto me. Her fear is of reliving the past, I suspect. I would guess that Mrs. Gamer reads the bonding strength I told her I had as 10/10 instead of 3/10. Probably 2/10 at this point and declining gradually. If Mrs. Gamer were warm to me, the bond would probably decline in strength a lot more rapidly.

    Speaking of the “other woman”, she has been making noises on fb about being at certain events where I’m likely to see–such as liking events and comments about events (unusual for her) and indicating that she would attend certain events. No direct contact by either of us in weeks, but I can read the signals. She’s a smooth operator. Not going to those events in any case. Married women aren’t on my menu and I don’t share–two objections against her.

    Like

  60. jf12 says:

    @thedeti, re: “threatening a marriage”

    At first I read this to mean “If you don’t watch out, I’m going to marry you!”

    Liked by 1 person

  61. Yoda says:

    “If you don’t watch out, I’m going to marry you!”

    Palpatine: You must find the rebel base. If not, I will marry you.

    Darth: I will redouble my efforts.

    Liked by 1 person

  62. Padawan says:

    Too Much Damn Sharing (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Now Yoda lives six hundred years,
    In marriage for long time he shares,
    But who calls that sharing since woman ain’t caring
    For no man wot’s six hundred years.

    Like

  63. Spawny Get says:

    Hey RedPillGirl,

    glad the buffeting that you got in similar parts to this gave some benefit. It’s not like I’m anti helping women make relationships with men work in a healthy way. I wish you and him continued good luck.

    Cheers

    Like

  64. Farm Boy says:

    A marriage based on faux posturing and deception for whatever reason would seem to me a failure in progress. Obviously the resentment is going to build if you can’t discuss anything or share anything substantial with your partner. And if you have to turn to your “bros” for support during hardship wtf point is a spouse anyway?

    Which is more important?
    1.Tingles
    2. A capable partnership

    Like

  65. Farm Boy says:

    But I do believe that a lot of marriages are precariously balanced on his managing her…and I am not remotely interested in having what amounts to a child in such a legally dangerous position in my life.

    But the challenge…
    But the fun…
    But the great sex…

    Like

  66. Farm Boy says:

    My issue regarding a wife is that good, or bad, we’re supposed to be on the same team.

    Indeed. If she is giving you the shaft, is she not doing the same to the team?

    Perhaps she does not care about the team…

    Like

  67. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “But the challenge…
    But the fun…
    But the great sex…”

    To misquote some guy, “Marriage is a young man’s game.”

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Farm Boy says:

    So it’s really a function of how attracted she is, her overall character, how committed she is to the relationship, and what her options are.

    During the evil Patriarchy, these were mostly in men’s favor.

    And this benefited women overall. Even though they do not want to admit it.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Farm Boy says:

    New post is up

    Like

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