Validation – Who Needs It?


A recent comment exchange here with Tarn led to the question: “Who needs validation”?  It was suggested that women do need it; and that some build their entire lives around it (e.g. Facebook).  But what about men?  How much do they need it? What exactly is validation and what is its purpose?    It would seem that validation is social reward(s) (note that they are cheap to produce and distribute) that a group gives to its members for whatever reason.  It used to be that society as a group socially rewarded members that contributed to the society.   This is not quite the same thing as respect.  Respect is an attitude, validation is a reward.

In my personal case, being an INTX, I grew up more or less disliked by my schoolmates.  Part of it had to do with the ability of INTs to see right through people.  Even though I tempered the usage of this attribute, it did not help.  Children need an “other”, and I was it.   I got some validation from my grades, but I did what any good INT does; I learned to become internally motivated and develop satisfaction from my accomplishments  and newly developed skills.  In short – I was marginalized, and as a consequence, went my own way.  The society of children in the school lost almost all power over me.  With respect to how this manifests itself today; in work and social life, unless people can affect me directly, I pay little attention to what they think of me.  Though with people I respect, I do care about how they think of me.

In the time since I left school, men have become more and more marginalized by society.  They receive validation from it most irregularly.  Using a behavioral model, this implies that society as a whole really does not care what men do.  If they did, there would be rewards (validation and other).  Even with validation an inexpensive reward to distribute, it is kept on the shelf.  What might men deduce from this? As a result,  one cannot help but believe that many men have developed like me their own internal validation system.  Perhaps this manifests itself in terms of video game accomplishments. Perhaps it manifests itself in terms of owning, maintaining, and a riding motorcycle.  All of the standard MGTOW activities apply. In short — one way that society (and women in general) has marginalized men is by providing little validation for their efforts.   This results in men putting their own needs first, and often ignoring society’s.  Society is (and will continue) to pay the price for this.

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Posted in AWALT, FarmBoy
95 comments on “Validation – Who Needs It?
  1. Farm Boy says:

    We pay a price — do we get good value?

    Like

  2. Choicy says:

    I validation I need comes from a can of Fosters. I seek this validation as earnestly as a validation-hooked woman. Else I’m a fairly normal bloke, really. 😀

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Farm Boy says:

    I would have to say that Fosters is probably better for society than Facebook.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Farm Boy says:

    Once there was an ad campaign here in the US for Fosters. The slogan was, “Fosters — Australian for beer”

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Tarnished says:

    I’d add something, put am struck by just how much FB sounds exactly like me growing up. It’s borderline scary, unless the fact we’re both INTJ/INTX really makes *that* much difference regarding how we see the world and it, us. 😕

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Tarnished says:

    Reblogged this on Tarnished Sophia and commented:

    Too excellent a question to not reblog.
    Come join the discussion!

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Farm Boy says:

    am struck by just how much FB sounds exactly like me growing up

    In high school I grew to be 6’2″. Then I could ignore schoolmates at my leisure.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Farm Boy says:

    Tarn,

    I thought that your blog was no more.

    Like

  9. Choicy says:

    Farm Boy,

    I enjoy some validation or mateship from men like Cill who are loners like me. Mateship isn’t necessary, we are ruthless men who know how to survive without validation. Mateship gives us some value along the way.

    Goodbye mate and all the best. The cattle and the camels are calling. I have to go home.

    Liked by 5 people

  10. Farm Boy says:

    Choicy,

    I live in the city now. But I might as well be by myself. I know the neighbors very little. I prefer to visit my farm when I can. I like it better there.

    I can definitely understand the call of the outback.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Tarnished says:

    FB,

    I *wish* I was that tall. I’m only 5’7″. 😦

    No, I put my blog back up because I got numerous emails asking why it was down and what a shame it was. https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/hiatus/

    I’m taking a break for now, but am reblogging posts that are cool and informative. My readers shouldn’t be left out in the cold just because I don’t have a lot of time on my hands.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Farm Boy says:

    I *wish* I was that tall. I’m only 5’7

    But you are a chick. You deal in other currency.

    Like

  13. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Choicy,
    Thank you for your company and contributions. I hope that we’ll hear from you in the future. In the meanwhile, I don’t like the idea of cranky Camels.

    It may not be validation so much as a path to dignity. I remember last Father’s Day and someone renaming it Doofuss Day. Good men go to church and get trashed from the pulpit by their pastors. When they return home and want to watch a little TV, they get it again from our President.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Tarnished says:

    Yeah, but recall that I’m a chick who would greatly prefer to not be a chick. It would make me much happier to be the same height as my lover (coincidentally, also 6’2″) rather than inches shorter. It’d be easier to sneak a kiss without him needing to sit down or lean over, just for one example.

    Like

  15. Tarnished says:

    However, it would also make me happier to be more muscular, which fortunately is well within my control. Gonna start taking testosterone supplements (not sex-change hormones) and begin doing a lot more strength/anaerobic training. Hopefully I’ll see some results in the next few months. 😀

    Like

  16. Farm Boy says:

    I remember last Father’s Day and someone renaming it Doofuss Day.

    I think that I might have started that. I do know that I promoted it.

    It drives the modern reality home.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Farm Boy says:

    I think that I will write a post about Doofus Day on Father’s Day.
    Remind me to do so Fuzzie Bear

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Liz says:

    Tarn: “am struck by just how much FB sounds exactly like me growing up”

    Me as well. I suspect it’s a common thing for INTers.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Tarnished says:

    It’s beginning to seem so, Liz!

    Like

  20. Liz says:

    Tarn, I do a workout that’s pretty good with my husband and the boys…it’s called ‘the body is the barbell’. We’ve ALL seen muscle growth using this (my husband has been working out all his life, he can do 45 pullups, and his arms are bigger doing this). I’ve been a yoga enthusiast and I’ve seen a difference too. And FAST. I have a completely solid arm when I just hold it up without flexing…I’ve never been quite that solid before (at least, not since the teen years).
    I only do it twice a week, they do it 3 times a week, just takes 30 minutes. Just thought I’d throw that out there in case you’re interested. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  21. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    It made me sad to see Father’s Day morph into Doofuss Day. It completely insults half of parenting.
    Yes, it was you who got the ball rolling on Doofuss Day.

    In the meanwhile, haow about a post from Yoda? We can all respond in Yodish.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    I just checked…they have that book in stock at my local B&N! I’ll pick it up tomorrow, thanks so much. 🙂 ❤

    Like

  23. Liz says:

    Oh yeah! You’re so welcome!
    Hope you like it. 🙂

    Like

  24. Cill says:

    “We can all respond in Yodish”
    Good idea! Errr, hang on a minute… Padawan would bring out his pen…

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Yoda says:

    If Tarn writes posts here she does
    Also I will do

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Tarnished says:

    Challenge accepted.

    Like

  27. Cill says:

    Yoda,

    Just as long as you know what you’re setting in train. All I can do is warn. More things are wrought by Yodish than this world dreamed of.

    Like

  28. Padawan says:

    Untitled (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    >:D

    Like

  29. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Why do I get the feeling that we will have a post from Yoda soon?
    Vewry popular it would be.

    Like

  30. SFC Ton says:

    If a man needs external validation he isn’t much of a man

    Part of the beta/ blue pill script is the quest for external validation. Much like a woman.

    On top of that womanish need for external validation is the fact said man can not jump.through enough hoops to earn it; men and women instinctively disrespect men who require external validation/ men who fall into the try harder category

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Lon Spector says:

    No one needs validation. Did you ever read Walt Whitman’s “Song Of Myself?”
    Also, could someone display the song “Red Rubber Ball.” by Chricke? (1965).
    MGTHOW songs are so rare, that I think we should draw attention to them when we
    can.
    Also, for a clue about how women used to think, there’s “Johnny Get Angry,” by ?
    (1962).

    Like

  32. Spawny Get says:

    “could someone display the song”

    to mis-quote He-Man, “YOU HAVE THE POWWWERRRR!!!”

    Just find the video on youtube, copy the URL and then paste it into a comment here…job’s a good-un

    If you’re on a mobile device – after pasting the URL check to see if it starts with ‘m.youtube’ if it does remove the ‘m.’ Also, check in the middle of the link, if you see ‘/#/’ remove ‘#/’ too. Should work fine for everyone then.

    If you give it a go and screw it up, Spawny will be kind…’Empowerment to the people’

    Like

  33. Liz says:

    We’re social animals. Specifically, independent social animals.

    It’s true the validation bit can go too far (that is a sign of neediness and insecurity). On the flip side, awards (gold medals, ect) exist for a reason. Recognition for one’s efforts is pretty important.

    Imagine the boss or coworker who takes the credit from your efforts and never offers thanks. That’s divisive for more reasons than just money.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Yoda says:

    Validation widening it would seem.
    Women orgy on Facebook they do.
    Men MGTOW or MGTOW lite they do.

    Like

  35. Yoda says:

    On top of that womanish need for external validation is the fact said man can not jump through enough hoops to earn it

    Ignore such women we should.
    Control themselves they must learn.

    Liked by 1 person

  36. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    That’s a great way to put it. The idea that “manly men” or “real men” shouldn’t be rewarded or thanked for the hard work they do is very close to the Man Up-ing we all hear from various parts of society. One of the biggest complaints my friends have always had is that they don’t mind working long hours to provide for their families…except for the fact they get so little validation or gratitude for doing so. It goes from being a duty they happily shoulder to a chore they are simply expected to do.

    Validation shouldn’t be a constant pat on the back for mediocrity, but neither should it be completely denied to those who deserve it.

    Liked by 3 people

  37. Liz says:

    “Women orgy on Facebook they do.”

    True. But that sort of validation is so cheap it could hardly be called validational at all.
    “I’m so ugly”
    “OMG! No way! You’re nothing but gorgeous and awesome!”

    That’s about like a kiss from your sister or mother.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Yoda says:

    But that sort of validation is so cheap it could hardly be called validational at all.

    Cheap attention whores they might be called.

    Like

  39. Tarnished says:

    Slight tangent:

    A simple “thank you” goes an incredibly long way in a relationship, especially one that is sincere and reciprocated. Lover and I never take each other for granted, and always make sure that our appreciation is verbally communicated. I know some parts of the manosphere say it’s “beta” to let your partner know she’s appreciated and there’s even some ratio (3:1?) a guy is supposed to abide by for thanking her for thinking of him. Idk…to me this just seems dishonest and manipulative.

    Liked by 2 people

  40. theasdgamer says:

    @ Ton

    Part of the beta/ blue pill script is the quest for external validation.

    “The fear of man is a snare.”

    Like

  41. Liz says:

    Agreed, Tarn.

    I think there are better ways to avoid being taken advantage of (and I have to assume that would be the point? sounds odd to me) than counting the number of thankyous/attaboys to ensure one gets three for every one.

    Like

  42. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz, Tarn

    The point of the 3to1 is that the lower-value woman (1 to 2 SMV points below the man) should be chasing the higher-value man. He needs to show some appreciation; too much, and that signals that the relationship is in trouble.

    Like

  43. theasdgamer says:

    Notice how the idea of “fairness” in a relationship can infect and damage healthy ideas about relationships. This “fairness” is merely another manifestation of equalitarianism which the FI uses.

    Like

  44. Spawny Get says:

    So…is it a joint decision as to what is fair?

    Like

  45. Yoda says:

    Fairness in the eye of the beholder it is.

    Like

  46. Yoda says:

    Men from society real incentives they do need.
    Validation not enough it is.

    But like two lawyers face down in the Potomac, a start it would be.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Yoda says:

    Yoda, Just as long as you know what you’re setting in train. All I can do is warn.

    Wisdom I will give.
    Good it will be.

    Like

  48. molly says:

    Did Choicy think mateship and validation are the same? Sorry Choicy (tho you’re not here) I don’t think they are. Mateship is friendship. Validation is like “Tell me how nice I am. Tell me I’m lovely. Confirm I’m right. Show how popular I am.” The men I know really well don’t need validation. They like validation from people they respect, yet they don’t have to have it. Men don’t pump for validation the way woman do. I don’t think men totally need friends either. Nature designed them to survive on their own if need be.

    Was Choicy more or less saying the same as me? He did say he enjoys some mateship (I know he does!) tho it isn’t necessary for him. The men I know really well are like that.

    Women scream for validation so they get all the attention from government down. We hear “The Republican party needs to find a way to appeal to more women.” Do we hear “The Democrats need to find a way to appeal to more men”? These are all forms of validating women IMHO. It’s bad. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Yoda says:

    Why women desire validation to the extent that they do?

    Like

  50. Yoda says:

    Molly answered question before it I did ask.
    Furbies strong in the force they are.

    Like

  51. molly says:

    Nature did not design women to survive on their own, is why 😉

    Like

  52. molly says:

    I guess validation is like monkeys grooming to squash fleas on each other. Group cohesion etc.

    Like

  53. Yoda says:

    Nature did not design women to survive on their own, is why

    True this might be.
    Explains why women alienate and drive men to MGTOW it does not.

    Like

  54. eoylus says:

    I am only 5’3, so you aren’t as short as I.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. Spawny Get says:

    “Nature did not design women to survive on their own”

    Or you to juggle, it seems

    Like

  56. Yoda says:

    Or you to juggle, it seems

    Applies to furbies also it does.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. molly says:

    I think women behave like female baboons. Female baboons drive males from the troop. They sometimes help another male against the alpha male, to kill him or drive him from the troop.

    Like

  58. eoylus says:

    Men do not receive validation because society expects them to be “strong” and suck it up and not talk about their feelings, otherwise they are seen as “desperate” or “whining”. Men do not have the same emotional outlet as women and aren’t always seen as feeling beings because the stereotypes of men are so ingrained by society.

    Liked by 2 people

  59. Spawny Get says:

    Validation grooming is overrated

    Liked by 1 person

  60. molly says:

    “Furbies strong in the force they are”
    Taught well I was.
    Chose my grandmother wisely I did.
    The same one Cill as well chose..

    Like

  61. molly says:

    Female baboons are just awful towards the males. They really are like women.

    Like

  62. Yoda says:

    Men do not receive validation because society expects them to be “strong” and suck it up

    Some validation that on correct path they are useful it would be.
    Silly it would be to do this not.

    Liked by 2 people

  63. Liz says:

    Is there a difference between validation and recognition?

    Like

  64. Yoda says:

    Is there a difference between validation and recognition?

    Recognition specific to individual it is?
    Validation a group thing it could be?

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Tarnished says:

    Spawny,
    Fairness is definitely in the eye of the beholder.
    To use an example that Blurkel and I spoke of previously:

    I have only had my lover as a sexual partner, but I’m his 13th. While this inequality could be a theoretical point of angst and contention between us, it isn’t for various reasons. First, he’s 15 years older and has had ample time/opportunity to procure more partners. Secondly, he didn’t have any mental blocks holding him back from indulging himself sexually like I did, so he was able to do more much earlier than me anyway. And thirdly, we can both agree that we are the best, most open, and most adventurous partner the other has had.

    Now, if he constantly spoke about these previous partners or tried to forbid me from finding another even when he’s not around…that would be different. That would be a case of having his experience thrown in my face, or trying to control an aspect of my life he has no right to (given that I’d never think of forbidding him from seeking another woman).

    Are our histories unequal?
    Yes.

    Does this inequality actually matter?
    No.

    Is it acceptable to both people involved, with the understanding that this may change in the future and be a topic of discussion/alteration?
    Absolutely.

    Thus if a relationship has an inequality contained within, the only time it becomes an issue is if one party is resentful of it.

    Liked by 2 people

  66. Tarnished says:

    Eoylus,

    Exactly! And thus why it is total b.s. 😛

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    Recognition seems to pertain more towards above-par achievements, whereas validation is simply an acknowledgement that one does something. I’d say you could be validated by your spouse for your hard work as a sanitation worker, but you’d get recognition if you became the first chair of an orchestra.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Yoda says:

    Spawny,
    Fairness is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

    Said this I did.
    Spawny not verde like I am.

    Like

  69. Liz says:

    I think we have some semantical differences. When I think of recognition or validation, I think those apply to individuals.
    With recognition, I think of the individual and above-par achievements, as Tarn mentions. But with validation, I think of the same. To me, simple acknowledgement would be appreciation and basic consideration, not validation per se…though it could be both, if one accomplished something and this helped a person out it could be a validation/appreciation combo: Example, “You really saved my ass on this assignment. Thanks so much!” or somesuch.

    Like

  70. Liz says:

    And I think Facebook “you’re awesomes” are to validation what ‘friending’ someone on Facebook is to real friendship.

    Liked by 1 person

  71. SFC Ton says:

    Men do what they do because they are driven to it, everything else is secondary

    Like

  72. SFC Ton says:

    Least for its White guys.pert certain there is a huge difference in races on this one

    Like

  73. eoylus says:

    If that Facebook analogy is true, then I do not have as many real friends as I think, just some.

    Like

  74. Liz says:

    You might have a ton of friends, eoylus (I wouldn’t know, we’ve never met…btw, welcome! good to have you here).

    But the number of “friended” people on Facebook aren’t the measure for that.

    Like

  75. Liz says:

    I heard somewhere that (before he’d spent all his money) Mike Tyson had an entourage he paid to follow him around and tell him how great he was (or, perhaps great he wath).

    But….there’s Justin Beiber. And he’s white (though I’m not sure he’s actually a dude).

    Like

  76. Spawny Get says:

    Just started watching a Kiwi film, was laughing before the titles finished…wish me luck. I had to turn the tv upside down, but it was worth the effort to save standing on my head. Smart, see? Spawny is teh smartz.

    Like

  77. Spawny Get says:

    So far the Kiwish accent is mild, but follows Choicy’s guide to pronunciation.

    Like

  78. theasdgamer says:

    @ Lithp

    or, perhaps great he wath).

    P

    Like

  79. Francis Roy says:

    Spawny said

    Even with validation an inexpensive reward to distribute, it is kept on the shelf. What might men deduce from this? As a result, one cannot help but believe that many men have developed like me their own internal validation system.

    What it means, I think, is that people, myself included, are assholes. It is an irony that the cheapest of things to give away is often the most withheld, as though it were a zero sum game.

    I grew up very isolated in my formative years, so failed to develop the interpersonal skills necessary to feel the need to be with humans. When, at some point in my teens it did kick in, I started emulating my father. Not a good thing.

    These days I’m listening to to How to Win Friends and Influence people. I watch socially skillful people like CapriciousBlackBox (a YouTuber), Johnathan Haidt and these last few days, Malcom Gladwell.

    I notice the effects of my interactions with people. I have the tendency to look for what is wrong and to correct it, rather than being able to say “This part of your argument is good, this works, and I’d look at that a different way, what do you think?” I still say “No, no, no. This is wrong. Here’s what’s wrong with it. This is a better way.”

    This universally turns people off–and I’m aware of it.

    These days I’m having a 30% success rate at doing the following: Do not speak unless your words are worth more than your silence ~ Indian Proverb.

    I’m working hard at being the distributor of positivity. I have more work to do.

    I do not buy that this is a male or female thing, but a combination of upbringing, and character. The latter, at least, we have some control over.

    Like

  80. Spawny Get says:

    Hi Francis. The post is FarmBoy’s not mine. Bit late tonight, I’ll be doing some catching up tomorrow.

    Like

  81. Spawny Get says:

    Must recommend the Kiwi film, comedy, thriller, horror, drama…Housebound.

    Its on Netflix US, great stuff. Made in 2014, to be remade in 2016!!! I have no idea why, it was perfect, great acting. Probably want pretty American faces. For shame, for shame.

    Like

  82. […] Spawny Get on Validation – Who Needs… […]

    Like

  83. Farm Boy says:

    New Post is up.

    Like

  84. blurkel says:

    Those of us who became “The Other” in our closed social groups had to evolve self-validation to survive. Increasingly, what this means is we don’t follow the fads nor join on on the abuse of another “Other” just because everyone else is. What validation we might receive from the larger social network, or even society at large, is by necessity a temporary inconvenience which we tolerate to maintain diplomacy. It means nothing once the social situation ends, and we can go back to our daily lives uncontaminated.

    Liked by 3 people

  85. Tarnished says:

    Blurkel receives all my remaining “likes” for the day. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  86. blurkel says:

    “Mike Tyson had an entourage he paid to follow him around and tell him how great he was (or, perhaps great he wath).”

    Modern society has this backwards, of course. In Roman times, when someone was being feted for achievement, it was a job of a slave to remind the honoree that he was also mortal.

    Liked by 1 person

  87. blurkel says:

    Spawny said:

    ” Made in 2014, to be remade in 2016!!! … Probably want pretty American faces.”

    It was thus with the “Girl With The Dragon Tattoo” series. I was fine with those Swedish productiions, starring Noomi Rapace, even if I had to rely upon subtitles since Jag talar inte Svenska. So when the remake was done with Rooney Mara, the promotional pix put out to hype the remake actually turned me off from going to see it. The look Rapace adopted for her role looked far more authentic than did the look Hollywood came up with for Mara, and I thus didn’t trust what other changes they would make to what was a great storyline, one which hints at WWII Sweden not being quite so different from their German neighbor.

    Like

  88. Spawny Get says:

    Yep, I watched the original trilogy. The political stuff was more interesting than the kick arse super girl side of it. Written by a right mangina.

    Homebound was really great, deffo thumbs up. No pretty faces,but plenty of great acting coupled with a great story.

    Liked by 1 person

  89. Yoda says:

    one which hints at WWII Sweden not being quite so different from their German neighbor.

    If Allies win, democracy we are
    If Third Reich wins, Aryans we are.

    Liked by 1 person

  90. blurkel says:

    Considering some of the disastrous wars Sweden got itself into across their history, such a position almost makes some sense despite demonstrating a serious lack of primciple,

    Like

  91. Yoda says:

    Dalrock talks about sammich therapy he does

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/24/culinary-frigidity/

    Characters appear like Blurkels wife and MIL they do.

    Like

  92. blurkel says:

    You would have to include my recently departed maternal unit in that cast of characters, Yoda. She couldn’t cook worth a damn, never made enough for everyone and never tried to, and regularly took herself out for a meal while we scrounged for something edible. I learned how to cook just so that I wouldn’t starve, for PB&J is only tasty for the first week or so.

    Like

  93. Francis Roy says:

    I chanced upon this video that I think speaks to your point, Spawn.

    Like

  94. […] the better.  And she likes it.  She can brag to her girl friends about the investment and get likes in Facebook; so what might there be to be unhappy about?  Exploitation […]

    Like

  95. […] endless courtship.  There is the sex with alphas.  There is the fun.   There is endless validation.  There is keeping friends on the line for favors.  And if all goes well, she shoots for the top, […]

    Like

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