THE PPP AND THE OTHER WOMAN – SHOULD I MARRY HER?


As this is likely to be my last post, or the last for a while, I better use it to set something to rights:

I have done my countrywomen a grave disservice by promulgating the misbehavior of the “PPP”. Ubiquitous she might be, but she’s not the only type of woman in New Zealand. There’s another type, which might even be the majority. The difference between the two types lies in “Alpha”, “Beta” and “Tingles”.

The Alpha/Beta/Tingles model is explained in Farm Boy’s post “Red Pill Classroom — The Beta” (https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/red-pill-classroom-the-beta/)

I have real difficulty with the labels Alpha and Beta. While the concept is easy, the reality is not so straight forward in my experience.

Dichotomizing by the dissed Beta and the tingle-giving Alpha doesn’t work. Beta do give tingles. Alphas do get dissed.

Alpha as “dominant men” doesn’t work either. In order to monopolize the breeding, the alpha of yesteryear had to be alpha among men. The Alpha of today are just a joke. They are men who persisted with scatty women until they acquired the experience that makes scatty women real easy. It’s a matter of behavior, not genetic superiority. Today’s “alpha” fail to impress most men and women.

The first category of women in NZ includes the PPP and basically any woman who can be tingled by today’s alpha. The second category don’t get the tingles from the behavior of today’s alpha. “The Other Woman” fits into the second category.

THE OTHER WOMAN

Someone suggested in humor that Tarn could set up a column of the “agony aunt” type.  Now I’m wondering if I can ask for agony aunt input.

“The other woman” is a loyal, trustworthy, responsible and honest person.

SHOULD I MARRY HER?

Needless to say, “marriage” should not be taken literally.

The following are excerpts from stuff I wrote before Spawny Space came into being last year. I’m presenting it like a diary although it wasn’t written as a diary at the time. I have altered it for reasons of clarity and privacy (Note: The woman referred to as “M” is definitely not one of the women who have commented on this blog. She just happens to have the same initial as one of them):

Month 1, Day 23

I have told all my non-family women acquaintances that I don’t want to maintain contact with them unless they renounce feminism (my reason for this was a double tragedy in my life, caused by feminists). As a result, I now no longer have contact with women – apart from five who have tried to remain in touch with me. These five women don’t know each other.

Three of the five now swear that they have renounced feminism. They each say (separately) they are devotees of GirlWritesWhat etc etc, and they can quote a lot of detail as to why they detest feminism. Some of the detail is impressive, and new to me.

They want to be back in my life. A non-MGTOW friend tells me I’m mad, that any of these women is a real catch and I should nab one of them while they’re still there. He talks about “M” in particular as a “story book love”. Many times he and other guys tried to put the moves on her but she always said she was keeping herself for me.

M knows there are 4 other women who try to visit me here. She arrives in her outboard runabout and lies at an end of my secluded beach, far enough to be out of my way but where I can’t help but see her. When we catch each others eye she gives me a dainty wave then goes back to her book. I can’t call her a stalker. She’s unobtrusive and respectful and to all appearances just a lovely person.

She handed me something the other day. It was a small book she had put together with coloured wool. It contained her thoughts and I could see myself in some of them. It was charming.

When I approach to interact with her, we laugh and smile and I’m reminded of the huge amount of fun and humour we got out of each other in my pre-MGHOW days. And the sight of that body, those legs on my beach, her face slightly flushed… mrrrh-UH! I could tear out my hair in frustration.

And yet… I remain MGHOW. How many women have pledged undying love for a man, only to initiate divorce when she feels she’s worrth it? How many women absolutely meant it when they told him they love him, but a few years later are accusing him of DV to force him out of his home and the lives of his children?

How can I trust the word? I see only MGTOW, or a potentially ruinous blind trust.

Month 1, Day 24

I don’t often get “down” like this. Actually, I’m not depressed so much as frustrated. She’s there on “my” beach, and the only other person for miles around is me. And when she gets up to go for a swim MY GOD! a divinely beautiful woman. In paradise. My paradise. On her own. My mates think I’m mad, and there are times when I begin to wonder if they are absolutely right.

Dammit, I’m gunna throw a party tonight and get pissed with my mates (I’ll wait until she’s gone first, in her cute little runabout boat).
Bonfire on the beach. Sausage sizzle. Skinny dip… maybe hire a stripper or two? Maybe not.

Month 1, Day 25

I have no neighbours. The only way to reach my beach is by boat or chopper. My cottage is on a rock cliff above the beach. No cars, no roads.. I can throw a stone into the sea from my front lawn.

I really do live the dream. Would it sound boastful to call myself the ultimate MGHOW? Hell yes it would, but I think it could be true.

Who would be crazy enough to risk all this for a woman? Not even THIS woman. Hot damn, she’s lovely.. Actually, M is most definitely not after me for my assets. She was born into “old money”. She’s loaded. But if ever I had children and were forced out of their lives, there could be no paradise for me here or anywhere. It would be the end of the dream.

If only there were some way to unfoolishly trust the word, I could have it all with this one. A paradise complete with an Eve. But I got no crystal ball. It’s a shame. I’m going to have to tell her there’s no possibility of LTR.  Man o man I’m going to hate doing this. It’s obvious that she loves me. She exposes her inner self to me, making herself hugely vulnerable. I’m worried I might destroy her.

Month 1, Day 31

M seemed to guess what I was about to tell her. Before I could speak, she took a deep breath and said she will spend the rest of her life trying to prove I can trust her word, but hopes I will come to trust her before she’s too old (she’s in her early 20’s at this time). Also, if I want to emigrate to any country that remains uninfected with the feminism virus, she would love to come with me as the happiest woman in the world.

She tried to make me laugh by saying  she wishes she were male so I might trust her, and if I were a gay MGHOW she’d be as camp as a row of tents.

In her feelings for me, she’s as sincere as the word can be in this day and age. However, I’m “too old to love a woman for singing a song” (Who wrote that or similar? Was it Shakespeare? Marlow? Webster?).

M and I knew each other in my pre-MGHOW days, so she already knew why I loath feminism. She knew the background – the people involved, and how it panned out.

I explained to M why a relationship between us is impossible. She tried to hide it, but was every bit as devastated as I feared she would be. She left in her runabout, and I haven’t seen her again.

I remain a MGHOW.

Month 2, Day 13

M has disappeared from the radar. She has withdrawn from her old social circles. None of them have heard from her or know where she is. I start to worry about her. I visit her parents, who like me a lot. They too know why I’m a MGHOW. They tell me she is overseas and keeps them informed. She is okay. I can see it in their eyes, the sense of hopelessness, the waste. In the past, in a quiet way they had always made it clear they like the idea of me and M together. Speaking about her obviously upsets them, so I leave.

The present day

M is back. I hear about her from my relatives. She’s single and she’s not available in the SMP. They tell me M doesn’t ask about me but “she pricks up her ears whenever my name comes up”. Three days ago M asked one of them to ask me if it would be okay for M to visit the beach…

Meanwhile the legal conditions are as bad for a man as ever. A man who marries sells his soul. The wife has all the power. In NZ an LTR of a few years’ duration is treated as marriage for divorce purposes.

What’s my next move, if any?

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158 comments on “THE PPP AND THE OTHER WOMAN – SHOULD I MARRY HER?
  1. Cill says:

    Since I can’t think of any comments to place here myself, I guess I shouldn’t expect any from other people either!

    Like

  2. Yoda says:

    The legal situation important it is.
    Women seem to understand this not.

    Like

  3. Yoda says:

    Sad this situation is.
    All society “thought leaders” read it they should.
    But read it not they will.
    Sweep thoughts of this issue under rug they will.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Yoda says:

    Sluts Vs. Nonsluts your model it is?

    Like

  5. Liz says:

    Lol Cill! 🙂
    I don’t know what to tell you. I can tell you in all honestly the most important things in my life, by far, are my husband and children. It’s pretty awesome, when it works out. But there are no guarantees in life.

    LIttle foot quote (probably doesn’t belong in a MGTOW forum, but I’ll use it anyway since you asked): Listen to your heart. It speaks softly, so you have to listen closely. I’d say early 20s is a good age.

    Just this morning one of my sons woke up on the couch (he’d fallen asleep there) and there was a post it on his chest from our oldest.
    It said: ‘While you were sleeping, I harvested your kidneys’.

    I can’t really imagine living any other way. But everyone’s milleage varies and there are other ways to live.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. theasdgamer says:

    The second category don’t get the tingles from the behavior of today’s alpha.

    And you know this because of self-reporting?

    Mrs. Gamer is the “second type” and she definitely get tingles from alphas. She avoids them, but they are attractive.

    I understand why you’re attempting to build up the “alpha for men” idea, but it just doesn’t work with women. A lot of Game is just good salesmanship, which is a very useful skill to have for a man. Ton has it in spades, even though he disses it.

    Like

  7. Yoda says:

    Dominance you do have.
    Worth the risk it might be.
    Never lose the dominance you should.

    With modern women — if lose dominance one does screwed he will be.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. theasdgamer says:

    Mrs. Gamer’s “NoSex” ™ stance was a sham, as I suspected. I suspect that she was trying to give me a chance to cut her loose if I wanted.

    My status is again restricted. Sorry, girls.

    Like

  9. Cill says:

    “The legal situation important it is.”

    It’s just a matter of time before the “Yes at every stage” crap finds its way into NZ as well. Imagine it: “Can I hug you dear?” “Do I have your permission to kiss you on the cheek?”

    Like

  10. Yoda says:

    Just this morning one of my sons woke up on the couch (he’d fallen asleep there) and there was a post it on his chest from our oldest.
    It said: ‘While you were sleeping, I harvested your kidneys’.

    I can’t really imagine living any other way.,

    With kidneys or without?

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Cill says:

    “Sluts Vs. Nonsluts your model it is?”
    Yes.

    Liz “I’d say early 20s is a good age.”
    After typing the post, I heard she wants to come here to talk. They say she’s changed, and is quieter than she used to be.

    Like

  12. Liz says:

    Cill is a huge dude who does a lot of manly stuff.
    He doesn’t have to “nurture the inner alpha” to be viewed as dominant, IMO.
    He comes across it naturally, I’m sure.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. Cill says:

    Liz at 9 February, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    I truer word was never spoke. Everybody tells me I’m Alpha, and I sure as hell never tried to be.

    Like

  14. Liz says:

    I was a feminist when I met my husband.
    In fact, I was a vocal feminist.
    People change if they’re intelligent and (most importantly) have a good fundamental value system and integrity of character.

    funny Yoda 🙂 You’re on a roll today.
    Good luck with the talk Cill. And good luck with everything…that’s about all I’ve got on this.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Tarnished says:

    Everyone here can give you advice, but it’s still your call, Cill.

    Somethings I didn’t get from your words above:

    1. Is she actually interested in marriage and/or cohabitation, or would an arrangement like what I have be amicable to her?

    2. Is she egalitarian, traditional, some other combination?

    3. You say you have known her since before your MGTOW days, but not *how* you knew her. Are you friends…acquaintances…admirers…what?

    4. How much time have you spent together to actually know her? My FwB was, as most of you know, a regular friend first. We had dinners together, saw movies, took walks, hung out in the same social circle, were in the same gaming group, and worked together for about a year. By the time we first touched, I already *knew* him as a kind, lovely, honest, person and therefore felt completely safe. Are you likewise confident that you truly know this woman and how she’d react in various situations?

    These are the things that would give me pause before even attempting to decide anything else.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz

    “nurture the inner alpha”

    What does this mean?

    A small sword will cut a huge, slow dude down to size. Same with a .357 . Or a stick of dynamite. Or a squad of betas (cops).

    Lots of huge dudes who do manly stuff are terrified of women. Betas. I understand that you’re trying to be supportive, but let’s be careful not go Blue Pill, Ok?

    The Inner Frame is key to alphas no matter their size or what they do in a manly sense.

    Gamer maxim: Pussy is just pussy.

    That attitude works for all men–PUAs and MGTOWs both. We want to help all male readers, not just a few.

    Like

  17. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cill

    I truer word was never spoke. Everybody tells me I’m Alpha, and I sure as hell never tried to be.

    I started as a natural, then swallowed the Blue Pill and tried to be beta, but it was a sham. “Faking it” works both ways. If a man realizes what it is to be a man, he won’t need to fake anything.

    Betas are betas because they have been propagandized. They are the ones who are faking it because they have been taught to be feminine.

    Like

  18. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cill

    What’s my next move, if any?

    Stop teasing her. No reason not to do a relationship if she’s sweet to you. Be up on your relationship Game and don’t fall in love. Spin other plates. Don’t see her more than once a week.

    My .02 .

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Liz says:

    “Gamer maxim: Pussy is just pussy.”

    But Cill isn’t a gamer, theasdgamer. And I don’t think he wants to be one.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. theasdgamer says:

    @ Liz

    It’s a Gamer maxim because I made it my maxim, not because people need to be gamers to internalize it. It’s good for all men. It crystallizes the Masculine Imperative.

    Like

  21. Tarnished says:

    Asdgamer,

    I’m confused. In your 3:34 comment, you essentially say that real/alpha men are that way because they don’t “fake it”. But then your very next comment sounds like you’re advising Cill to do this very thing…Namely, altering his behavior, including seeing other women (which I don’t think he’s doing right now anyway), avoiding falling in love (unsure if this is possible), and not seeing her more than once a week (what if he wants to spend more time with her than that?).

    Perhaps I’m missing something, but the advice you gave seems contradictory. I agree he should be cautious and guard himself, especially given how chivalrous he can be at times, but…there just seems to be a disconnect in your words somewhere.

    Like

  22. Tarnished says:

    Also, our group’s previous conversations concluded there wasn’t a Masculine Imperative, unless I’m mistaken. What is the MI, then?

    Like

  23. Tarnished says:

    Pussy *is* just pussy. Like penises, most vaginas are roughly the same size/shape with a few minor differences. However, it’s the person who owns the pussy that makes it worthwhile.

    Sexy Talk
    It’s like how my lover tells me I give the best oral sex he’s ever had in his entire life, and how Liz’s hubbie kidded about her leaving behind “instructions” if she dies for his next partner. It’s not that we can give sex that makes us cherished by our respective partners…after all, any woman can spread her legs or open her mouth. It comes down to the fact that we *care about the pleasure and satisfaction of our men*, and they reciprocate in equal amounts.

    Pussy is just pussy…till there’s a brain and heart behind it.

    Liked by 2 people

  24. Cill says:

    Tarn 9 February, 2015 at 3:28 pm
    She is traditional. Without having discussed it with her, I’m sure she’d prefer marriage.
    In my pre-MGHOW days she and I were close acquaintances. Most of our interaction was in social group settings. We didn’t spend much time together as just the 2 of us.

    “Are you likewise confident that you truly know this woman and how she’d react in various situations?” Her family invited me out many times, and I saw her interaction with them. I saw honesty, respect, generosity, loyalty.

    I haven’t spent much time alone with her but I’ve observed her many times in many different settings. I do know her well. Her character is as good as they come.

    Like

  25. Spawny Get says:

    “He doesn’t have to “nurture the inner alpha” to be viewed as dominant, IMO.
    He comes across it naturally, I’m sure.”

    My guess (FWIW) is that that is true. I don’t think that Cill realises that. Although there are other issues to consider as well. Cill has a great head start.

    I might be very tempted to have a heart to heart with the woman, if I were Cill. I don’t know why ‘marry’ would have to be an priority issue, or involving kids. She’s young enough to not have to be in a hurry.

    You know where I am. Still averse to voice? 😉

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Liz says:

    She sounds like a sweety, Cill. 🙂

    When my husband is asked why he settled down at such a young age, he says he felt deeply that he would be making a mistake he’d regret the rest of his life if he didn’t.
    Our situation was a little different though…he was going to go away, so it was more a leap of faith, take it or leave it moment. So far so good. 🙂

    Like

  27. Cill says:

    “Pussy is just pussy…till there’s a brain and heart behind it”
    Oh man… it beats the rubber doll for sure (not that I’ve ever tried one).

    Like

  28. Tarnished says:

    Cill,
    Okay then.
    Given this new information, I’d say spend some time together, but be direct and honest, letting her know that it’s a “getting to know you” trial, not necessarily dating. If she already knows the whys and hows of your MGTOW-ness and is both respectful and understanding of this, you’re starting from a better place than most.

    If you are seriously entertaining the idea of a LTR with this woman, who does sound like a good person, then take things slow and be optimistic…but cautious. The heart can only take so much, and while I don’t think it behooves anyone to lock theirs in a fortress, it’s still a good idea to give it a bullet proof vest. Does this make sense?

    Liked by 2 people

  29. molly says:

    “He doesn’t have to “nurture the inner alpha” to be viewed as dominant, IMO.
    He comes across it naturally, I’m sure.”

    His friends call him “the woman magnet”. ‘Nuff said?
    Extreme confident man.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Tarnished says:

    “Oh man… it beats the rubber doll for sure (not that I’ve ever tried one).”

    But does it beat a Tenga Fliphole or Hot Octopuss Pulse? 😈

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Cill says:

    Tarn, Liz, Spawny,
    Thanks for the ideas. She wants to come here to talk.

    asd,
    I like the range of ideas given. Where the situation is so risky for a man, he has to come into it from a position of dominance or he’ll be crushed. Legally it’s not a level playing field. “Don’t see her more than once a week” is good advice.

    Don’t worry, I won’t be in a hurry to fall in love.

    Like

  32. Cill says:

    Tarn you really are one of the most amusing characters I’ve ever come across! XD

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Cill says:

    Tarn, was your TENGA FLIP HOLE STARTER PACK the US$ equivalent of the £99.99 or the £109.99 version?

    [SG – “£99.99 was £109.99” – http://www.tenga.co.uk/products/tenga-flip-hole-starter-pack ]

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Spawny Get says:

    I’m looking at the webpage, but I still don’t know how you’d use it…fcuk me, I’m old

    Oh, and Tarn? The Llamas in hats just called…that still isn’t the sound of forgiveness that you hear. Not from me, leastways

    Liked by 1 person

  35. @ cill I think she sounds very nice and I look forward to hearing how things go.

    Like

  36. Cill says:

    Thanks Bloom. I must catch up with how you are going too. 😉

    Like

  37. Cill says:

    “His friends call him “the woman magnet”
    But nothing, nothing can match movie star good looks. It’s a pity no-one around here has said looks.

    Liked by 5 people

  38. Tarnished says:

    Cill,
    I’m special that way… 😉
    The $100 US one, btw.

    Spawny,
    *sigh* 😛
    Mea culpa.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Tarnished says:

    Spawny,

    So should I *not* tell you about the train wreck of a blog called Scary Sex Toy Friday?

    No links or further info, because I don’t want to frighten Yoda back to Dagobah…

    Like

  40. Spawny Get says:

    I’ve had a stiff bracer…go ahead…

    Like

  41. Cill says:

    I’d better have a stiff bracer of sailors rum as well…
    Okay, I’m as ready as I’ll ever be…

    Like

  42. Cill says:

    Hang on while I shoo Molly out of the computer room…
    Done.

    Like

  43. Tarnished says:

    It’s terrifying. Whatever you do…don’t Google it…

    Like

  44. Cill says:

    Ready and panting 😛

    Like

  45. molly says:

    Holy Cow
    Multi-suckered blue beastie! o_O

    Like

  46. molly says:

    How rude! 😛

    Like

  47. Yoda says:

    Tarn you really are one of the most amusing characters I’ve ever come across!

    Meeped in response she did.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Liz says:

    Dear God. I went there. I’ll never unsee it.

    Liked by 2 people

  49. theasdgamer says:

    @ Tarn

    I’m confused. In your 3:34 comment, you essentially say that real/alpha men are that way because they don’t “fake it”. But then your very next comment sounds like you’re advising Cill to do this very thing…Namely, altering his behavior, including seeing other women (which I don’t think he’s doing right now anyway), avoiding falling in love (unsure if this is possible), and not seeing her more than once a week (what if he wants to spend more time with her than that?).

    If Cill wants control of his life, he needs to avoid Oneitis. Spin a few plates. Don’t have sex more than once a week with any one girl. If he wants to lose control of his life, pursuing a strategy that leads to Oneitis will work. Sometimes we need to change our behavior when our strategy changes.

    Like

  50. Cill things are going really well! We are both very happy! It’s great 🙂

    Liked by 5 people

  51. Cill says:

    Bloom, great! 🙂

    Like

  52. theasdgamer says:

    @ Tarn

    What is the MI, then?

    “Pussy is just pussy.” implies:

    1. Don’t pedestalize women.
    2. Make your mission your priority, not some woman.
    3. No woman is worth a lot of attention.
    4. You as a man are higher value than any woman. Men have higher status than women.
    5. You as a man are more sexually desireable than any woman.
    6. Don’t white-knight or be a mangina.

    There may be other implications.

    Like

  53. Yoda says:

    Difficult for non-slut female to get attention for marriage it is.
    Situation for PPPs a disaster it must be.

    Liked by 1 person

  54. theasdgamer says:

    From the site:

    Personally, I really want to see the coal-shaped kegel exercisers that will turn sparkly if you squeeze ‘em hard enough. Now THAT would be Christmas themed sextoy!

    Connect it to a beanie with a spinner and flashing lights and a whistle!

    Liked by 2 people

  55. theasdgamer says:

    Now if you could do something similar with a doubledong…Nuclear Sex!!!!!

    Like

  56. Tarnished says:

    Asdgamer,

    Heh. If that’s the case, then I don’t like *either* imperative. 😛

    At work now.
    See everyone later.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. Yoda says:

    “Pussy is just pussy…till there’s a brain and heart behind it”

    Oh man… it beats the rubber doll for sure

    “Beats” depends on heart and brain it does.

    Like

  58. Spawny Get says:

    Couldn’t find Cougar Town…next best thing

    Liked by 2 people

  59. Cill says:

    Ohhh man? How am I going to face work today after seeing that sex toy site? As Liz said, “I’ll never unsee it”.

    Like

  60. Cill says:

    Okay, I’ve agreed to see M today. This will be the first time I’ve seen her in a while. Several cold showers will probably be required.

    Liked by 3 people

  61. Spawny Get says:

    Checked your email?

    Like

  62. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    I think you know which way I would go if in your shoes but, I’m not you. It does sound as if M is very much for real and she must be playing for keeps.
    One thought. Marriage worked for countless genertions. I have faith that it can still work as long as women commit.

    Liked by 2 people

  63. Cill says:

    “Checked your email?”
    I have. No new email in my gmail inbox.

    Like

  64. Spawny Get says:

    Again? Wrassinfrassinpaininthearse. I appear to have picked up a dud misspelling of your email address. Resent.

    Like

  65. Cill says:

    Still no email

    Like

  66. Cill says:

    “I think you know which way I would go if in your shoes”
    Which way would you go? Cohabit? FWB?

    Like

  67. Tarnished says:

    I’d do FwB (my kind, which sounds like it’s more monogamous than usual). No cohabitation!

    Like

  68. Cill says:

    “No cohabitation!”
    Good advice.

    Like

  69. Cill says:

    I’m about to have the chat with M now. 😉

    Liked by 2 people

  70. Yoda says:

    Good this does sound.
    Yoda old fashioned relationships he does like.
    Perhaps be this it will.

    Liked by 1 person

  71. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    It does tend to penalize guys in this SMP but, I am looking for a keeper.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Yoda says:

    I am looking for a keeper.

    Women should try to mold themeselves into keepers they should.
    Odd that they do not.

    Like

  73. Cill says:

    We’ve had the chat.
    She has no objection to me discussing it here.

    Her position hasn’t changed. She repeated what she told me at the start of “Month 1, Day 31”.

    She repeated it word for word, that she’ll spend the rest of her life trying to prove I can trust her word etc. She added a lot to what she said back then though: Love, desire to commit, children, togetherness featured a lot in the things she said. She wants me to lead, “it couldn’t work any other way”.

    Marriage is her preference. She would enter FWB as a form of trial, but definitely marriage is her goal.

    I said she’d given me a lot to think about and I’d get back to her. She was clearly overjoyed that I didn’t reject her outright.

    The decision is entirely mine, but I do appreciate the input from other commenters. When it comes to relationships, there are people here whose wisdom and experience in relationships far surpasses mine. I’d like to hear all of it, young and inexperienced ones as well if they’re there.

    Like

  74. Yoda says:

    that she’ll spend the rest of her life trying to prove I can trust her word

    Shows awareness of the situation it does.
    A start this would be.

    Like

  75. Yoda says:

    I’d like to hear all of it, young and inexperienced ones as well if they’re there.

    For 800 years have I trained Padawans.
    Control of the forces around them they must learn.
    “Dominate” the word would be.
    But light touch one should use.

    Liked by 2 people

  76. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    M really likes you! I am a naive, inexperienced bear. The one thing that I can advise is to respect her motives and not trifle with her affections. The one thing that keeps rattling around in my head is that you have to spend time together doing ordinary things.

    Liked by 2 people

  77. Tarnished says:

    Not sure if my experience would help at all, but I reiterate that a FwB situation would be a good place to start, especially as she’s stated it’s something she would do (albeit as a pre-marriage trial).

    1. It’s a good way for you to explicitly retain your MGTOW status so that the 2 of you don’t fall too far, too fast.

    2. The “F” part is important here. You already know you’re attracted to her, and she to you…now make sure you really enjoy spending one-on-one time together. Go out to eat at new restaurants, see movies and discuss them, take long walks so you have private time for conversation. Build up a batch of experiences that let your personalities shine through. How similar are your hobbies, likes, dislikes, etc.? I’d also reccomend throwing a few more red pill thoughts her way, and see how she responds.

    3. And of course the “B” segment of FwB is of great importance, too. Before getting into a committed relationship with her, see how compatible you two are in bed. Do you share intimacy the same way? Do either of you have sexual hangups the other should know about? Does she enjoy sex of a similar frequency and type as yourself? These are things to consider beforehand.

    4. Figure out just how traditionalist she is. Will she always expect you to be the leader and rock, without exception? Or is she a capable and understanding “first officer” when you need a helping hand now and then?

    5. I’ll be purposefully vague and simply ask if she knows your history, and if not, can you see yourself telling her? You know what I’m referring to here.

    That’s my advice and suggestions, as incredibly naive and inexperienced as it is. 🙄

    Liked by 1 person

  78. Cill says:

    I think you’ll be starting to see where I’m coming from when I say this lady is no PPP.

    Another thing she disclosed in her chat is, she has not dated another man. It confirms what I said earlier, that she’s not available on the SMP.

    I give her the tingles: absolutely no doubt about it. It couldn’t have been more obvious. That has been the case with M from the start. I should have made that clear in the post.

    Like

  79. Cill says:

    “incredibly naive and inexperienced”
    I don’t think so!

    Like

  80. Tarnished says:

    “…she has not dated another man.”

    This alone is huge. As a 20-something, intelligent, healthy, active woman she has needs. Physical, emotional, sexual. The fact she has denied herself fulfillment of these needs because she desires to satisfy them with you AND has proven herself willing to wait until you’re comfortable doing so speaks absolute volumes.

    I like her. She has standards,knows what she wants, and sees the value of delayed gratification.

    Liked by 1 person

  81. Tarnished says:

    “I don’t think so!”

    Well, naive and inexperienced in the ways of the world at large, then. 😛

    Liked by 1 person

  82. Cill says:

    I’ll tell you what, people, your comments helped more than my private in-person discussions with friends have done! There’s something about committing thoughts to writing (or typing)…

    Thanks to every last one of you! 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  83. Cill says:

    Don’t stop now! 😀

    “Well, naive and inexperienced in the ways of the world at large, then.”
    Strewth Tarn you’re a character! I don’t know… 😉

    Seriously, she has kept herself for a relationship with me all that time. That has to mean something, huh?

    Liked by 1 person

  84. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    She has “oneitis” for you? This is a good sign.

    Liked by 3 people

  85. Spawny Get says:

    Strewth?

    Would that be ‘God’s Truth’ there, Cill? Which is where I came into your story, I think.

    Liked by 2 people

  86. Cill says:

    ‘Struth, mate, but I think you’re right…

    Liked by 2 people

  87. Cill says:

    It amazes me to think, that was only 4 1/2 months ago…
    [Cill self edit: no it was a bit more than that. Maybe 6 months? At Tarn’s, it was]

    Liked by 2 people

  88. Tarnished says:

    *sigh* Okay, okay!
    Not “naive”. Let’s go with “dreadfully, hopelessly, irrationally optimistic about the human race.” Does that work? 🙄

    And yes, it absolutely does! In much the same way I only desire sex with my FwB…despite the fact I can have nearly every single man I know at my door in 30 minutes but *we* can only meet once a week…she sees something in you that is worth waiting for. It likely isn’t any one single aspect of you. Rather, the entire package is what she has set her sight on, and she is not content to find mere pieces of it in other men.

    A simple case of all or nothing, my dear Cill.

    Liked by 1 person

  89. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    It all sounds good. Does she have any friends that like bears?

    Like

  90. Cill says:

    Tarn at 10 February, 2015 at 12:41 am

    #1 Agreed.

    #2 Good advice.

    #3 This is the only area where I do have more than average experience with women. It would be fun to discover…

    #4 I already know she can be a rock.

    #5 Brilliant. 🙂

    Like

  91. Cill says:

    I know plenty splendid ladies who’d like bears, Fuzzy! But they all get snapped up and married off by mid twenties. I wonder if there’s an older one, say thirties. Hmmm…

    Like

  92. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    It’s all right. I think that the bottleneck for guys is finding a gal who is motivated. If I ever figure out how to overcome that one, I’ll share.

    Like

  93. Farm Boy says:

    I think that the bottleneck for guys is finding a gal who is motivated.

    Motivated to have a mutually beneficial marriage. One with the overused word “synergy”. One with reasonable expectations.

    Not one who is looking to exploit.

    Perhaps there will be a new post in the morning (US Eastern Time) related to this.

    Like

  94. Spawny Get says:

    The other issue might be that they have recognised the issues now, but they spent 15 years making irredeemable mistakes getting there. There is no such thing as a born again virgin. There just isn’t. Like the PPPs, they just aren’t marriage material anymore. Christian men may be required to forgive, but that should not involve forget and marry them. In my atheist opinion.

    Like

  95. Spawny Get says:

    I don’t think that modern empowered women have any interest in mutual anything. Maybe mutualising her college debt for her multiple worthless degrees…but only that.

    I’ve seen the question what’s in it (marriage) for men posed to women a fair few times. The question always seems to come as a massive surprise to women, they never have an answer of any consequence. If they have an answer at all, it’s likely to be a projection of something of little interest to men that women want.

    Like

  96. Yoda says:

    I’ve seen the question what’s in it (marriage) for men posed to women a fair few times. The question always seems to come as a massive surprise to women, they never have an answer of any consequence. If they have an answer at all, it’s likely to be a projection of something of little interest to men that women want.

    Telling this is.
    Men keenly aware of what women want they are.

    Like

  97. Spawny Get says:

    A tendency to want to partner up is pretty common in men. It’s a red pill thing to question WHY. That’s when the SHTF.

    Regardless, I recognise that some men find the MGTOW route too personally costly. While I wouldn’t do what some choose to do, I can understand it. I wish them good luck.

    Like

  98. Tarnished says:

    I’ve often wondered what the point of marriage is myself. Other than the rights that homosexuals are fighting for (ease of adoption, shared insurance policies, hospital visitation, etc.) I have a hard time finding anything related to marriage that is special other than the label.

    Maybe Liz or Bloom could tell us more?

    Like

  99. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    That women can’t answer that question is telling. I’s as if it has never been considered.

    Farm Boy,
    Motivation is foundational. Looking forward to the post.

    Like

  100. theasdgamer says:

    @ Tarn, Cill

    She has standards,knows what she wants, and sees the value of delayed gratification.

    Sounds like she may be a unicorn. Verify, then trust (a little). Keep verifying. Bullet-proof vest. Don’t invest too much too quickly. If she’s a unicorn, she can wait a bit.

    Liked by 1 person

  101. Cill says:

    asd,

    I’m making it sound as if I’ve already decided to run with her one way or another. You’re right, she can wait.

    Like

  102. Cill says:

    “I’ve often wondered what the point of marriage is”
    Or LTR. They are treated as the same on breakdown in NZ. Divorce laws apply to both. So non-cohabiting FWB should be as far as we are ever prepared to go. Even without the bias in the law, I’d not want to marry. Hearing what happened to men like Blurkel was enough to put me off marriage for good.

    Like

  103. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cill

    Don’t worry, I won’t be in a hurry to fall in love.

    I’m dealing with this in a small way right now.

    You know about the married woman I have some chemistry with. I have an oxytocin addiction focused on her. Every time I see her, I get a dose of oxytocin. It messes with my head and I feel weird around her. Not shy or lacking confidence. Just can’t keep my thoughts straight. So I don’t say much around her. With other women around her, no problem. I laugh and talk with them.

    Last Fri. night I was dancing with her and asked her to take it easy on me. She asked what I meant and I didn’t respond. I figured that she’d figure it out. She only danced five times with me. I think that she asked me all five times. I was wanting to keep the number of dances low that I danced with her. So, she didn’t push it up to ten or something that high. I don’t enjoy refusing her requests to dance. So she acceded to my request.

    She also chatted me up a bit about small stuff, which built comfort and took my mind off of my other problems. She was a friend.

    Tonite I was in a group lesson with her. Her being there is irrelevant to why I’m taking the class. So, she kept looking at me out of the corner of her eye. And dancing with her was a bit awkward as far as convo went. We have very good dance chemistry and move together very smoothly, so that was a good thing. I was planning to tell her thx for her support, but it never was appropriate during the lesson. So I sent a brief 16 char text to thank her. She replied with a couple of sentences.

    She remarked where she would be dancing the following night with her husband possibly being there. I don’t want her husband to see me ogling her butt and don’t want awkwardness with him, so I wouldn’t go there anyway. I try to minimize the number of days that I dance with her, so the extra day is out.

    I don’t deliberately flirt with her; there’s some eye stuff, which is quite compelling, but unintentional and sporadic. So, see how spergy just a small shot of oxytocin can make a guy? And see how hard it can be to manage a relationship with a woman when she is pushing hard to increase contact? Be careful.

    Liked by 1 person

  104. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    When you chased Molly out of the computer room, did you lock her in a closet? I haven’t heard a peep out of her since.
    By the way, don’t talk yourself into doing anything. Give it a good night’s sleep to bubble up from your subconscious.

    Liked by 1 person

  105. Cill says:

    asd,

    Point taken. I’ll be careful.

    Like

  106. Cill says:

    Fuzzy, Molly is away. She’ll be back, not sure when.

    Like

  107. Cill says:

    Fuzzy said “don’t talk yourself into doing anything”
    I need you older blokes to tell me to slow down, and that’s what I’m doing. I’m not going to rush anything.

    Like

  108. Sumo says:

    I’m going to refrain from offering any advice due to the fact that I’m an evil, soulless prick. I do, however, hope that you can figure stuff out, brother.

    Liked by 3 people

  109. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    Good night from my end and I hope that you have one at your end.

    Liked by 1 person

  110. Cill says:

    Sumo, knucklebump, Bro!
    There’s a song by Kiss goes something like this:
    “Every time I open the door it’s the same damn thing
    That bitch bends over, and I forget my name.”

    asd said “see how spergy just a small shot of oxytocin can make a guy? And see how hard it can be to manage a relationship with a woman when she is pushing hard to increase contact? Be careful.”

    Every time M goes for a swim it’s the same damn thing
    All she does is bend over for her towel, and I forget my name.

    Am I making sense, Bro Sumo? Probably not. Never mind. It’s just good to have your support, brother.

    Like

  111. @ cill what do the women in your family think of M? How long have you known each other?

    Like

  112. Cill says:

    Bloom,
    Her parents and my parents are old friends. My dad’s description of M:
    “In a line up with conventional beauties she’d stand out like a bonfire among bar heaters.” My family think the world of her.

    M and I saw each other from time to time when we were young. I knew who M was and vice-versa. I remember this hell of a pretty little girl. From the time M was in her late teens and I was in my mid twenties, we came across each other more frequently in social settings. It was at that time, she tells me now, she fell head over heels for me.

    Like

  113. Liz says:

    Tarn: “I’ve often wondered what the point of marriage is myself. Other than the rights that homosexuals are fighting for (ease of adoption, shared insurance policies, hospital visitation, etc.) I have a hard time finding anything related to marriage that is special other than the label.

    Maybe Liz or Bloom could tell us more?”

    Making a commitment that is binding (as an oath before God, the law, your family and friends) is a much firmer way to seal that commitment than just shacking up and called each other partners.
    Statistically, it’s a lot more likely to last, and therefore it’s also a better foundation for raising a family. Also helps with the ‘name’ thing…we all have my husband’s name, there’s a sense of proprietorship (my wife, my husband, our kids, and so forth). Makes legal documentation easier. Plus, with the military it would have been incredibly difficult. I wouldn’t have access to insurance, or the base, or spousal privileges of any sort. Plus, it would be a very very unstable life for me, moving around and adjusting my life around his schedule, if he weren’t committed to me. I’d have to assume he didn’t feel the same way about me as I do about him (usually the case in shackup-only arrangements).

    We did shack up before marriage, for a short time…but it wasn’t a “trial” thing. We knew we’d be together forever. We shacked up right away for the simple reason we couldn’t stand spending five seconds more than we had to apart. It was extremely hot and heavy, from the beginning.
    (note to gamers: this is simply the truth I’m sharing, since I was asked a direct question. Not attempting to persuade or impart any lessons here)

    Liked by 2 people

  114. Liz says:

    We’ve been married since 1992.

    Like

  115. Tarnished says:

    Liz,
    Thanks for laying all that out. Some things, like the name changing and insurance, I know can be done outside of marriage but are much easier within one. Others, like the commitment issue, seem to be a case by case basis. And of course being a military spouse is very different than being a military shackup…if there is such a thing.

    Let me ask this though: If there was a way to obtain all the aspects of marriage through a process that wasn’t marriage…would you still need to be married? As in do the labels of “wife”, “husband”, and “spouse” influence the desire for marriage in any way? Many of the women I’ve heard from on this issue state that it’s a status thing…they want to be known as a Wife, not a Girlfriend or Lover because of how much more importance is given to this title above the others.
    Note: I accept your reasons and don’t honestly think this last question applies to you. Just wondering if the married/non-married women you know have similar views.

    Cill,
    In reading through my comments it sounds, at times, like I am endorsing marriage to M.

    I’m not.

    Despite the wonderful presence of our friends Liz and Bloom, I’m still a firm MGTOW supporter. Too many men, and a handful of women, that I personally know have gotten screwed over by the divorce/family courts. People of both sexes lie, cheat, steal, and can be manipulative like nobody’s business. The manosphere focuses very much on the evils done to men by women and you’re quite capable of finding pieces from your own life that fit this narrative.

    Personally, if I was you, FwB or maybe non-cohabitation dating would be the furthest I’d take it. I mean, hell…it’s the furthest I’ve taken it in my own life, and I’m not even the sex most likely to suffer!

    Please just be careful.

    Liked by 1 person

  116. Sumo says:

    Cill, you’re making perfect sense (to me, at least). I’ve been there. I can empathize.

    Liked by 1 person

  117. Liz says:

    “Let me ask this though: If there was a way to obtain all the aspects of marriage through a process that wasn’t marriage…would you still need to be married? As in do the labels of “wife”, “husband”, and “spouse” influence the desire for marriage in any way? Many of the women I’ve heard from on this issue state that it’s a status thing…they want to be known as a Wife, not a Girlfriend or Lover because of how much more importance is given to this title above the others.
    Note: I accept your reasons and don’t honestly think this last question applies to you. Just wondering if the married/non-married women you know have similar views.”

    In all honesty, Tarn, yes it’s much better to be introduced as a wife than a girlfriend. It’s like the difference between renting and ownership. I’m not going to pretend there’s no pride in ownership (yes, we own each other, in our estimation). Society at large views the girlfriend differently than the wife, especially once kids come into the picture.

    First time this fact struck me, I’d been married for about six months. You’ve probably heard my birth control pill story…there’s a bit more to the story. After the honeymoon I got off the pill due to issues with being crazy. But, a few months later it was such a drag using condoms/diaphragm and the spermicide made his dick chaff and my girly parts felt like I’d been drilled by a train (very very bad allergic reaction to nonoxynol 9, stuff they don’t even use now, to my knowledge…that’s all they had back then). So I tried going back on the pill. I went to the pharmacy and the pharmacist gave me a lecture….”Have you been off the pill all this time?” He pointed his finger in my face and said, “That is very dangerous young lady!”
    He stated this in front of a line of people. I was pretty humiliated….keep in mind, I was only Molly’s age then, and I looked about 15. I’m sure he thought I was in high school, but it was unprofessional in the extreme. I went home and told me husband. He called the pharmacist directly and gave him a dressing down, after introducing himself as my husband….it made me feel good that he could do that, and I don’t think it would have the same impact if he’d said, “my girlfriend”…of course, he could lie and claim to be my husband but it wouldn’t be true, and wouldn’t feel the same.

    Of course, now I’d tell him directly that his conduct is unprofessional…I’m not a little girl anymore. But that’s an example that comes to mind.

    Liked by 1 person

  118. Cill says:

    It’s 2:29 a.m. here. I got out of bed and re-read every comment. There’s a wide range of comment. It’s helping me to clarify my mind. In order of extent of commitment:

    1. Marriage
    2. Non-marriage co-habitation
    3. FWB
    4. Just sex
    5. Platonic friends
    6. No contact at all
    7. Marry or cohabit in a non-feminist country

    At this stage:
    #1 is not an option for me
    #4 is not an option for her
    #2 is unlikely for me
    #3 as anything other than a temporary situation, is unlikely for her.
    #5 as anything other than a temporary situation, is unlikely for me.
    #6 remains as a likely outcome
    #7 This option is a late addition, thanks to a reminder from Cautiously Pessimistic

    Like

  119. Cill says:

    Sumo, thanks mate.

    Tarn and Liz, interesting dialog as usual.

    Liz’s comments re benefits of marriage fit in with the successful marriages I know. There is “ownership” but it’s more to do with pride than submission. The women are proud to be the wives of their husbands because they are proud of him. In this sense, to be owned by him is an honor. It’s self-fulfilling, because her manifest pride in “being his” greatly improves his status in the eyes of the world. It really does. Most of the world still likes to see it.

    The men are equally proud to be the husbands of their wives.

    Liked by 1 person

  120. Farm Boy says:

    A new post is up

    Like

  121. Liz says:

    I really wish the wife/children as property model would come back…Tarn, are you pulling out your hair at that? 🙂
    It would solve a lot of these dilemmas…”hey, I signed the papers”=ownership and no way to get screwed with the wife taking the kids. They’re yours too (except under the most extreme circumstances).

    Today? You kind of have to trust that the woman respects the traditional model. But there’s no way to absolutely guarantee that. Maybe you can go with number 3 temporarily, if she is amenable, and see where to go from there? Number 6 seems like a waste of something that could be very very meaningful. But YMMV.

    Liked by 1 person

  122. tamerlame says:

    Should I marry her?

    Nope.

    Move to another country if you want to get married.

    Like

  123. tamerlame says:

    “Sumo, thanks mate.

    Tarn and Liz, interesting dialog as usual.

    Liz’s comments re benefits of marriage fit in with the successful marriages I know. There is “ownership” but it’s more to do with pride than submission. The women are proud to be the wives of their husbands because they are proud of him. In this sense, to be owned by him is an honor. It’s self-fulfilling, because her manifest pride in “being his” greatly improves his status in the eyes of the world. It really does. Most of the world still likes to see it.

    The men are equally proud to be the husbands of their wives.”

    Fake feminine submission. The woman has legal power over the man, yet she decalres she is submitting to him? LOLOl

    Okay that is nice, you can’t relabel reality like that.

    A real submissive wife, would go out and work for her man 60 hours a week while he stays at home and watches day time TV.

    The man is the slave, the submissive one.

    Like

  124. Cill says:

    Tarn ” I’m still a firm MGTOW supporter. Too many men, and a handful of women, that I personally know have gotten screwed over by the divorce/family courts.”

    I’m still MGHOW. See me today at 1:29 a.m.

    Liked by 1 person

  125. Tarnished says:

    Liz,

    I am, but only because of the language involved. If someone is property, they aren’t a person…you can’t truly “own” another human being without condoning slavery.

    However, if it’s a circle of interdependence between a family…that I’m okay with. It’s the difference between saying “this is my husband” vs “this is my dog”. We can say they are both statements of “ownership”, but the connotations behind them are *very* different.

    Then again, I have no horse in the marriage race, so if a couple wants to do such-and-such, I have no desire to tell them they can’t.

    Liked by 1 person

  126. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Cill,
    How much of an option is moving to a country where marriage isn’t a death trap? She’s said she’s up for that, but I don’t know how realistic that option is for you.

    Good luck. I wish you the best, but be ready.

    Liked by 2 people

  127. Liz says:

    “How much of an option is moving to a country where marriage isn’t a death trap? She’s said she’s up for that, but I don’t know how realistic that option is for you.”

    That’s a very good idea…but they would probably have to stay in that country if cohabitation applies as marriage in NZ. And it sounds like he has a pretty good setup in NZ.

    Liked by 1 person

  128. Tarnished says:

    Tamerlame,

    “A real submissive wife, would go out and work for her man 60 hours a week while he stays at home and watches day time TV.”

    If I was to ever get married (as a hypothetical) I’d be happiest with a househusband type. However, this isn’t an excuse to sit on one’s ass all day, whether one is male or female. There’s the household chores to do, gardening for our vegetables, pets to care for, groceries to buy, meals to be cooked, etc. I actually enjoy working and having a career, it’s something I look forward to everyday. But in this hypothetical relationship, I’m nobody’s mother…if he’s not going to accomplish anything at home while I’m out bringing home the bacon, why are we cohabitating in the first place?

    Playing video games for a few hours each day or hanging with friends at night?
    Very acceptable.
    Watching TV, playing video games, and hangingwith friends all day, then also expecting me to pick up the rest?
    Absolutely not.

    I don’t really care about the dominant/submissive labels. What I’d want is a partner willing to pull the same (or at least close to the same) weight I am. If they can’t do that…why are we together?

    Like

  129. Cill says:

    Cautiously Pessimistic,

    You’ve mentioned another option, which I’ll add to my list at 10 February, 2015 at 1:29 pm. Thanks for pointing it out.

    It’s a genuine option. I’ve worked in non-feminist countries where big business interests and officials together have said they’d like me to stay longer.

    Liked by 1 person

  130. Cill says:

    Tamerlame,

    I won’t marry. Feminism has made marriage and LTR impossible for the man. Feminism is hell bent on making all interaction between human males and females impossible for the male.

    I was not promoting marriage. I was mentioning some features of successful marriages. I might add that the husbands and wives in those successful marriages were not typical people. And I said “it’s more to do with pride than submission”.

    Like

  131. “From the time M was in her late teens and I was in my mid twenties, we came across each other more frequently in social settings. It was at that time, she tells me now, she fell head over heels for me.”

    But how do YOU feel about her, Cill? I am sensing not the same? I suspect if you did, you would not have these hesitations. Or maybe you want to marry her but your hesitation comes from the current risks of the mmp?

    My advice would be to search your heart. If its bc you don’t feel it too, don’t. If you would in a heartbeat *if* you knew it would be happy and last, that’s something to ponder. If you are perfectly happy now and don’t desire a wife and children, that’s ok too.

    Liked by 2 people

  132. FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Cill,
    From what you keep telling us about M, as a candidate for marriage, I don’t think it gets any better.

    Liked by 2 people

  133. ” I have a hard time finding anything related to marriage that is special other than the label.

    Maybe Liz or Bloom could tell us more?”

    Sorry for my late reply, I wanted to wait until I had a minute to try and put this into words. Tarn if I were in your shoes, I can see where a long term fwb arrangement would work. You don’t have kids, you don’t desire to have kids. In my case, I do want to live with my mate, and I do have kids. To be honest, having been married before and that not working out for me, I tried the “marriage is just a piece of paper” arrangement the second time around. We had a child. Two years into that, he split. No warning, just “I thought I wanted this but now I don’t.” Would he have split anyway? Probably, although not as easily. I regret that choice, to shack up and have a baby, in hindsight. As hard as it was for me to cope with the heartbreak of something I was sure would last forever not lasting, it was so much harder to see my oldest daughter go through her own heartbreak, it was like another divorce for her, and it also broke my heart to know what that meant for my youngest — she was not going to grow up in a house with both her parents, which was never “the deal” as far as I was concerned but I could not stop it. I tried, but his mind was made up. I guess that soured me on the whole co-habitat idea. Too unstable. I put myself and my kids in a bad spot with that choice. My fiance and I now, we don’t want to have more kids, but we want to build a life together, and live together, and also raise my daughters in a way we are comfortable being role models for them. And for me, and him, that’s marriage. I want to be his and I want him to be mine, not out of ownership or status but simply because for us, marriage “feel right.” My fiance wants to sink a chunk of change into my property and biz, is selling his place to do it, and quite frankly he said he’d feel safer doing that if we are married and he could go to a court of law and get that money back if I ditched him rather than just be out. (which isn’t going to happen, but just hypothetically). I know our case is not the typical but those are the reasons for us. If others choose not to marry, I have no problem with that.

    Like

  134. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    To provide counterpoint to rpg (who I firmly believe means well) your heart is the last thing you should listen to.

    It’s obvious that you’re attracted to her. The question is how much risk and upheaval are you willing to take on in order to be with her. That’s a head decision. Make it with the right one.

    Liked by 2 people

  135. Oh also, I suppose this may raise the question why not two households, see each other on weekends? Well we just want to see each other more than that, we want to be together and sleep together, and every night! 🙂 We want “me” and “you” to become “us” and “we” and “ours.”

    OTOH, I know couples who have been together for 20 + years, never married, never co-habitat, never had kids. It works for them, and they are happy! So there are many models, each has to choose the best path for themselves.

    Liked by 1 person

  136. I agree with you cautiously, heart may not have been the right word there. Search your soul, that’s what I meant. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  137. Farm Boy says:

    Cill,

    Now that you have divided women into sluts and non-sluts, can you fill in the details?

    Like

  138. Cill says:

    Feel free to keep commenting on this post in the meantime…

    Like

  139. Spawny Get says:

    Feel free to answer my emails… 😉

    Like

  140. Cill says:

    Molly’s not here and she’s out of contact for now. I haven’t seen your latest email.

    Like

  141. tamerlame says:

    Tarnished, being a house wife is easy now. it used to be hard work before all the technology men invented.

    Tarnished watch this.

    Liked by 1 person

  142. Tarnished says:

    That video is just terrible. I’d never abandon my househusband…why should I? If we agreed to the arrangement, there’s no recourse to. Of course, as I said before he should pull his weight and not just take advantage of the fact I’m bringing home the money, but I have no problem accepting that he isn’t a “provider” or has a mentally/physically easier day than myself. This is why honesty and communication is so incredibly important. Note that I don’t disagree with the video’s creator, I’m just struck by how stupid it all is.

    Men did invent many of the things that made currently make housework easier, this is true. But women have invented things that make certain work easier for men, too, like signal flares, the circular saw, liferafts, and kevlar. And then there are female inventions that help nearly everyone at some point, like the dishwasher, paper bags, disposable diapers, liquid paper, windshield wipers, and medical syringes. Personally, I’m proud of our species as a whole for being so innovative, and don’t separate female inventors from male inventors until others do…such as now. 😉

    Like

  143. tamerlame says:

    I dunno. I think most claims of female inventions are bunk.

    Like that woman was is credited as the first programmer, that is nonsense apparently.

    Men have invented 99% of things to be honest, and that is fact.

    I think men are still behind 95% of patents.

    Like

  144. Tarnished says:

    Why?

    Do you mean Rear Admiral Grace Hopper? Is there recently found evidence that she wasn’t involved in the first computer coding/programming write ups? I’d find that odd, given that our military asked for her input on numerous occasions.

    I don’t think it’s as high as 99%, but I’ll admit it’s the majority. Unfortunately we’ll never truly know due to the loss of historical data over the centuries.

    According to US government statistics, 18% of patents granted in 2010 were to women inventors, and 33% of trademarks.

    Like

  145. tamerlame says:

    No Ada Lovelace, I think she spotted a bug in a program that is about it.

    I will have to look the stats up.

    Like

  146. Spawny Get says:

    Ada, yeah. That’s who I assumed you meant. Desperate stuff.

    Like

  147. Tarnished says:

    Don’t know much about her…she’s not a name I automatically recognize like Ms. Hopper. I’ll have to look her up.

    Here’s the stats in full:
    https://www.nwbc.gov/news/more-women-obtaining-patents-trademarks-recent-years

    Like

  148. Spawny Get says:

    Can’t remember the name, but I think that her cleaner was called the first computer debugger for services in removing insects from the hardware*. With about as much credibility as the claims for Ada.

    (* to be clear, I just made that shit up)

    Liked by 1 person

  149. Tarnished says:

    Lol.
    Well, I know Ms. Hopper taped a dead moth to the inside of one of her diagnostics journals, but the term “debugging” was around prior to that.

    Ada doesn’t seem to have been nearly as sought after as other female tech workers…

    Like

  150. Spawny Get says:

    Ashley, it appears that Ada might actually have been the first debugger.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace

    Controversy over extent of contributions[edit]
    Criticism[edit]
    Though Ada Lovelace is often referred to as the first computer programmer, there is disagreement over the extent of her contributions, and whether she can accurately be called a programmer.
    Allan G. Bromley, in the 1990 essay Difference and Analytical Engines, wrote,[71]
    “All but one of the programs cited in her notes had been prepared by Babbage from three to seven years earlier. The exception was prepared by Babbage for her, although she did detect a ‘bug’ in it. Not only is there no evidence that Ada ever prepared a program for the Analytical Engine, but her correspondence with Babbage shows that she did not have the knowledge to do so.”

    Blue plaque to Lovelace in St. James’s Square, London
    Historian Bruce Collier went further in his 1990 book The Little Engine That Could’ve, calling Ada not only irrelevant, but delusional:
    It would be only a slight exaggeration to say that Babbage wrote the ‘Notes’ to Menabrea’s paper, but for reasons of his own encouraged the illusion in the minds of Ada and the public that they were authored by her. It is no exaggeration to say that she was a manic depressive with the most amazing delusions about her own talents, and a rather shallow understanding of both Charles Babbage and the Analytical Engine.[72]

    Like

  151. Tarnished says:

    Lol, this could be why I’d never heard of her in my research on female techs/inventors.

    And don’t call me “Ashley”… 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  152. Spawny Get says:

    Huh! So Ashley gets a response, but not this prime nugget

    Annnd what’s up with naming a gurl after a cheese? I mean, seriously…Brie?

    Next you’ll be naming women with varicose veins, Stilton. Or Blue Stilton in the unlikely event that she works in pr0n.

    TANJ dammit.

    Liked by 1 person

  153. Spawny Get says:

    Was it too clever?

    Stilton Cheese

    Stilton is an English cheese, produced in two varieties: Blue known for its characteristic strong smell and taste, and the lesser-known White. Both Blue Stilton and White Stilton have been granted the status of a protected designation of origin by the European Commission. The PDO status requires that only cheese produced in the three counties of Derbyshire, Leicestershire, and Nottinghamshire and made according to a strict code may be called “Stilton”.

    a piece of blue, veiny Blue Stilton, yesterday
    Note the blue veins…

    Liked by 1 person

  154. Tarnished says:

    Didn’t see an issue.

    I plan on naming my (completely imaginary) daughter Cheddar Louise, and my sons will be Gouda and Limburger. Our dog will be named Fondue…

    😛

    Liked by 1 person

  155. Spawny Get says:

    Or you could name your first son after my middle name, Wensleydale (honest)

    Particularly nice with Cranberries

    Like

  156. Spawny Get says:

    The daughter has to be Edam, Shirley? An anagram of Dame.

    I never knew there were so many British cheeses

    Like

  157. theasdgamer says:

    So you want some cheesy jokes? Goudanuff. To brie or not to brie? That is the question. I’m feta-up with these jokes. [Cue the smell of limburger.]

    Like

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