Surprisingly the comment thread for the Panda post de-degenerated into a decent discussion (you can only imagine my disappointment).
Here’s what started as a comment there (talking about submission vs Capt/F.O. etc).
It then degenerates into a discussion on feminism and election results.
moving on from that to a general point.
I think issues arise in any relationship (marriage or business/employment) when one person insists on being dominant when the other(s) frankly don’t see leadership material.
‘(S)He’ doesn’t know what he’s talking about. ‘(S)he’ just insists on being in charge. That Hermione woman wanting to be in charge of a school play aged eight. Do we really think that she knew what she was doing? or was she just being bossy? by any vague chance?
Or, the other just doesn’t see the need to be lead in general. Maybe on issues where the other knows their stuff better, yes. And vice versa. (so this sounds like Tarn to me). I could live with this, but if one is naturally more competent than the other in many areas, you end up with de facto leader/follower (which is my experience…why?…glad you asked).
As people age, competent people tend to get more competent and more confident…and other people see this (they become more inclines to follow that person). And you become more comfortable being the one making more of the decisions. You gravitate into a more leadership oriented role. When I look into my crystal balls I see this in Tarn’s future…but who knows?
It also depends (in love) what attraction triggers you have. If you’re a guy attracted to feminine feminine types then (IMHO) those women tend to be happier in the First Officer role. If they have an opinion on ‘X’ they want to have it valued, but don’t actually wish to be the one making the final decision. Sometimes instead of interminable debates seeking consensus on issues where there isn’t a consensus to be had, there are just a bunch of differing views (differing in the details, not on substance), sometimes someone just saying, “Well we’re doing ‘X’, let’s get on with it”, well that’s a great idea. Endless debate until the opposition just agrees out of fatigue and the recognition of a growing desire to go find a nice sharp razor and a warm bath (anything to end the talking) isn’t a great way to run a relationship, family or company.
Everybody should do as they please…I am not describing how things should be. I’m just saying that I see these types of people out there and I see these tendencies in action.
There’s nothing wrong with Captain/First Officer. There’s nothing wrong with Egalitarian. There’s nothing wrong with ‘Taken in hand’ (I believe the term is, could be wrong) in either direction. As long as, in all cases, both sides want their respective roles.
Now in reality I think many male + female pairs would naturally fall into Captain/First Officer due to natural preferences. Or would evolve into one like that. But society is determined to undermine men, belittle them. It also tends to build up women beyond their individual reality (yougogrrl, waif-fu etc). (There are kick-arse women out there, but not all women are kick-arse).
So you end up with men being discouraged from acting like a Captain (except bad-boys / PUAs and Alphas with their irrational optimism…’follow me! it’ll all be fine!’). So they fail to spark desire in women looking for a benevolent leader who will care for them and value their knowledge.
And women being pushed to want to be captain even when they just aren’t cut out for it. They win the dominance battle and become bossy wives of men they don’t respect. Or they don’t win but become contentious in all things just to prove that he isn’t better than she is. or they end up as first officer / follower but with voices in their head telling them that he’s oppressing them. None of which is conducive to a happy marriage.
This is where feminism has lead us, I think. And it’s why it doesn’t work for most in society.
Feminists tend to be from the masculine end of the female spectrum (because research. linked somewhere on this blog) or the crazies who hate men and love to feel like oppressed victims (that’s their ‘victory’ to have their dysfunctionality blamed on an oppressor, rather than it just being what they are – not very competent except in bitching about fantasised oppression).
If you’re a woman with male type drives, why would you want to be a SAHM chained to the kitchen sink? Of course you don’t want that and why should you have to accept that? I have no problem with women doing whatever the hell they want and can do. I don’t believe in quotas, I don’t believe in necessary standards being dropped for women (just drop unnecessary ones). But in the vast majority of the jobs in this world, women have the right and ability to compete with men. Average female IQ is similar to average male IQ and it’s IQ that matters more than brawn nowadays. You go girls (really), just pay your own way while you do it.
The problem is that this noisy minority, the masculine women, are the ones that grabbed leadership of the herd. They told the other women that fulfilment lay only in competing with men in the traditionally male realms, traditional femininity and ways of life are oppression. And the rest of the women swallowed the line, or just liked the increased goodies being ripped off from the men, so they followed along. We seem to be arriving at a point where increasing numbers of women are finally <I>finally</I> waking up to the fact that they don’t get fulfilment from that life. They want to raise kids, they like making a nest for a family (maybe not full time, maybe alongside a part time job). Whatever they legitimately want to do (as long as they pay their own way, or find a consenting partner).
I see Americans here and elsewhere saying that yesterday’s elections there reflect a growing resistance to the ‘war on women’ malarkey. About frigging time. I’m awaiting the same thing in the UK. I don’t see it yet. Call me Dave is still following the war on women line even if he won’t wear the t-shirt. Many women agreed that he shouldn’t – so that’s encouraging (link somewhere on this blog).
Let the feminists do what they want to do in life (without access to the government teat and levers of power) and let everyone else figure out their own paths in peace.
Just a (bunch of) opinion(s)